Response to comments on DELTA
miked at ENTO.CSIRO.AU
Wed Apr 27 16:29:59 CDT 1994
27 April 1994
I have been away for a few weeks, so was unable to take part in the recent
Taxacom discussion about DELTA. Here are my responses to some of the comments.
> A lot of botanists are talking about DELTA, but only three, that I know of,
> are publishing actively using DELTA output... There is a lot of talk, but
> almost nothing to show for it!
I will post separately a list of references relating to the DELTA programs
developed in the CSIRO Division of Entomology. References relating to Richard
Pankhurst's DELTA programs (PANKEY, PANDORA) are not included. The list will be
published in the forthcoming DELTA Newsletter.
> I believe that the use of DELTA for entomologists [compared to botanists] is
> DIFFICULT, because: a) there are too many characters to check (botanical
> descriptions use less characters, at least involving identification routine
> procedures); b) the states of each character are very numerous and have no
> specific, easy to learn nomenclature
I have not noticed any such tendency, and counterexamples are very easy to
find. For example:
Ev Britton's data on species of Heteronyx (beetles): 202 species, and 44
characters, of which 6 have 3 or 4 states, and 9 are numeric.
Joe Kirkbride's data on species of Cucumis (cucumbers): 40 species, and
about 230 characters, of which 47 have 3-9 states, 8 have 10 or more
states, and 80 are numeric.
> The only major proviso to remember is that the DELTA character lists are not
> immediately usable in cladistics. Especially when using DELTA for writing
> descriptions one ends up focussing on what might be called "differentiae"
> rather than on shared similarities. One can modify a DELTA list to use in
> cladistics, but using it directly leads to some rather entertaining
The first sentence, though qualified by the subsequent ones, tends to reinforce
the common, but mistaken, idea that `DELTA character lists' necessarily have
some taxonomic peculiarities which make them fit only for restricted purposes.
In fact, one of the main reasons for developing DELTA was to avoid the need to
contruct special-purpose character lists to suit the requirements of different
programs. DELTA, in its strict sense, is only a data format (DEscription
Language for TAxonomy), which is sufficiently flexible to record most of the
kinds of information used by taxonomists for describing and classifying
organisms. A character list that you might construct for use with HENNIG86 or
PAUP can easily be entered in DELTA format. Even if you want to use your data
only for cladistic analysis, preparing it in DELTA format has the advantages
that: (1) the data can easily be translated into the formats used by various
cladistic (and phenetic) programs; (2) numeric data can be coded directly, and
broken into ranges later (possibly in different ways); and (3) other DELTA
programs, particularly INTKEY, have valuable features for checking and
obtaining insight into the data. However, to get the maximum return on the
effort required to collect the data, it is usually worthwhile to add some
characters (possibly including pseudo-characters such as synonomy, notes, and
classification) that will make the data suitable for other purposes too. The
DELTA programs have facilities for restricting the characters to the subset
needed for any particular purpose.
By the way, are `entertaining' phylogenies necessarily bad ones?
> I am currently developing computerized keys for the identification of
> **********. I am using DELTA primarily as an example of how not to make
> interactive keys. Because I am only making keys for non-entomologists to use,
> I am only interested in INTKEY, and not in any other features of DELTA. The
> number of other programs out there that do essentially the same thing as
> INTKEY indicates to me that this is what everyone else is interested in also.
My experience with running DELTA courses leads me to believe that (regretably)
most taxonomists are still mainly interested in writing descriptions and
conventional keys. During the courses, I try to demonstrate the advantages of
INTKEY, not only as a means of giving others access to taxonomic information,
but as a means by which taxonomists can check and gain insight into their data.
> There are several problems with DELTA.
> 1. It [INTKEY] is not an expert system, which is really what I want in an
> interactive key.
It depends what you mean by `expert system'. See
Dallwitz, M. J. (1992). A comparison of matrix-based taxonomic
identification systems with rule-based sytems. In `Proceedings of IFAC
Workshop on Expert Systems in Agriculture', pp. 215-8. (Ed. F. L. Xiong.)
(International Academic Publishers: Beijing.)
Here is part of the summary of that paper.
Some important aspects of the identification skills used by experts cannot
be captured in computerized identification aids, and those that can are not
necessarily optimal. Matrix-based identification systems have already
reached a high standard of performance, and the data matrices are also
valuable for other purposes. Most taxonomic information is gathered and pub-
lished in a form more akin to data matrices than to rules, so rule-based
sytems are more difficult to construct, and the information they contain
tends to be sparse.
> 2. I feel that the search algorithm is the opposite of what it should be. I
> would prefer a routine that separates the taxa with unique characters FIRST.
There are many algorithms for choosing characters to be used in identification,
but as far as I know all of them look for characters that divide the remaining
taxa into subgroups that are as nearly equal as possible. This tends to
minimize the number of steps required in an identification. For example, for a
group of 100 taxa, the use of characters which are optimal in this sense would
lead to a key requiring 6 or 7 steps (characters) for an identification,
whereas the use of characters which split off one taxon at a time would lead to
a key requiring an average of 50 steps for an identification. If you need
further convincing, just try doing some INTKEY identifications choosing
characters from near the bottom of the `BEST' menu, rather than from the top.
Another important consideration in choosing characters is the ease of use or
`reliability' of the characters. This is a subjective matter, which often
depends on the context in which the key will be used. In KEY (our key-
generation program) and INTKEY, reliabilities may be set for each character.
The relative importance attached to the reliability and the separating power of
a character are controlled by a parameter, RBASE, which may be set by the user.
By suitable choice of reliability and/or RBASE, any character may be forced to
be the `best' character (provided that it has any separating power at all).
Characters which split one taxon from all the rest are often preferred by
taxonomists, and could be given high reliability to force their use. However,
such preferences should be examined critically. A distinction may seem obvious
to the expert who has a mental picture of all of the taxa. Novices may make the
distinction accurately when identifying a specimen of the unusual taxon, but
will they do so with other specimens, particularly if they have never seen an
example of the unusual taxon? How will the overall accuracy of the
identification be affected, taking into account the much greater number of
characters that will have to be used?
> Instead, the program looks for characters that have poor consistency and tend
> to show up in all taxonomic groups. This is really frustrating for a
Classification and identification are quite different operations, and
attempting to combine them will generally lead to poor results for both.
> 4. The interface [of INTKEY?] really sucks. It is not intuitive.
It's difficult to reply to such general and subjective criticism. I would
appreciate some more specific comments on the interface.
> The command line interface makes it a dinosaur.
INTKEY can be operated from menus as well as from a command line.
> There are too many things to do to get to an answer. The software does not
> guide the user through each consecutive step. It is not clear at any given
> point what to do next.
These comments epitomize the naive view that is apparently leading many people
to attempt to write their own interactive identification programs. You can't
get the full benefit of interactive identification by merely computerizing and
slightly enhancing the step-by-step procedure used in a printed key.
Actually, INTKEY can be configured in such a way that the user is led through
an identification. Just enter the command SET AUTOBEST 1000 (or place it in the
INTKEY.INI file). The identification procedure is then as follows.
(1) Enter RESTART (or select it from the menu).
(2) A menu of the `best' characters appears. Select one.
(3) A menu of character states appears. Select one.
(4) Repeat (2) and (3) until a single taxon remains.
However, this is not the most effective way of carrying out an identification.
That is why AUTOBEST 1000 is not the default setting. Compilers of data sets
are free to put this setting in their INTKEY.INI files (hence effectively
changing the default), but few choose to do so. In the MS-Windows version of
INTKEY (to be released soon), we will provide a simple and conspicuous
mechanism whereby a user can choose settings which lead to `simple' operation
of the program.
To give you some idea of the flexibility of INTKEY, here some of the possible
courses of action once you have made a tentative identification - that is, once
the program has indicated that only one taxon matches the specimen description
that you have entered. Actually, any of the commands below might be useful at
any stage of the identification, and I feel strongly that programs should allow
this kind of flexibility, rather than leading you along pre-determined
pathways. This certainly means that some effort is required to learn to make
the best use of the program, but this should be acceptable to professional
users wanting to achieve professional results. (By `professional', I mean not
just taxonomists, but anyone who needs identification or information retrieval
as part of their job.)
For brevity, these actions are described as commands, but they can all be
carried out via the menu system.
DESCRIBE SPECIMEN USED
Recapitulate the specimen description that you have entered (that is,
describe it in terms of the characters that you have used), so that you can
DESCRIBE REMAINING ALL
Display the full description of the `remaining' taxon. REMAINING is an
example of an automatically defined `taxon keyword' representing a set of
taxa. At the end of an identification, it represents a single taxon, but at
earlier stages it would represent several.
DESCRIBE REMAINING HABIT DISTRIBUTION ECOLOGY
Display the description of the remaining taxon in terms of its habit,
distribution, and ecology. These are examples of user-defined `character
keywords' representing sets of characters. They would generally have been
defined by the person who prepared the data.
DIAGNOSE REMAINING NONE
Generate and display a diagnostic description of the remaining taxon, in
terms of characters not used in the identification. This description will
distinguish the remaining taxon in at least one respect from all the other
taxa, and so provides an independent check.
DIFFERENCES (SP 6) USED
Display the differences between the specimen description and taxon 6.
(Maybe you thought your specimen was taxon 6. What is the evidence that it
SET MATCH EXACT
DIFFERENCES (SP REM) ALL
Set `exact' matching and display the differences between the specimen
description and the remaining taxon. If the MATCH setting were left as it
was during the identification (normally Overlap, Unknown, Inapplicable), no
differences would be shown, because the remaining taxon is, by definition,
the one that matches the specimen. Setting MATCH EXACT allows the
DIFFERENCE command to pinpoint characters where the specimen and the
remaining taxon differ because of variability, or because the character is
unknown or inapplicable for the remaining taxon.
SET TOLERANCE 1
Set the `tolerance' parameter to 1. This brings back as `remaining' taxa
all those that differ in not more than one respect from the specimen
description. You can then continue with the identification as before. This
is particularly useful if you suspect or know that there has been an error,
for example, if the number of taxa remaining is 0, or if the description of
the remaining taxon does not fit the specimen.
ILLUSTRATE TAXA REMAINING
Display illustrations of the remaining taxon.
> You cannot view text and graphics at the same time.
This will be possible in the Windows version.
> With all the really slick multimedia stuff out there these days, I don't
> think DELTA has a chance of being adopted as a standard for zoology.
The DELTA standard, as endorsed by the International Working Group on Taxonomic
Databases for Plant Sciences, is a data-interchange format, not a program.
Having such a standard means that users need not be locked into particular
programs. This is obviously just as important for zoologists as it is for
> [Comment by Ingolf Askevold.] I agree, and so do others I've talked to, that
> the interface sucks and that it is not intuitive. No argument from me. I
> think Mike should post his fulsome reply to this statement, for I'm still not
> sure that I buy it.
I will put it at the end of this posting.
> 6. I do all my figures on a Mac (= super VGA). Everything is fine with DELTA
> [INTKEY] as long as the computer you're using has a super VGA card and
> driver. If not, the figures, which are the only good part of the entire key,
> will not work.
You need to distinguish between INTKEY and particular data sets which use it.
People who compile data sets are free to use standard VGA images if they so
wish. (They are also free to produce poor data. It would be helpful if you said
what data you were working with, and what you think is wrong with it. It seems
quite likely, in view of your other comments, that the fault is in the way you
are using the program.) Our CD-ROM for the Angiosperm families has both VGA and
Super VGA versions of the images. Only the latter are on the Internet, but you
can convert them all with a single Image Alchemy command (or, if you prefer a
program with a more intuitive interface, about 10000 mouse-clicks). The Windows
version of INTKEY will have built-in scaling, scrolling, and colour reduction,
so this problem will not arise.
> 7. The [DELTA-format] data files, and to some extent, the directives files,
> are too difficult to modify.
Richard Pankhurst and Eric Gouda have editors for entering and modifying DELTA
files. Also, we will be rewriting our program CONFOR with a built-in editor.
> Manuscripts that I have seen that were written relying heavily on DELTA have
> convinced me that it is not the way to go to prepare floristic accounts - or
> only as step one one a long staircase. ... After reading a number of strictly
> parallel descriptions, I have reached the conclusion that they can easily
> conceal the significant information in a deluge of unhelpful information. The
> wording achieved with DELTA is also often very awkward. As a means of
> providing an initial draft, or a reference work, fine. For a final product,
> not without more work than is generally used.
Fairly readable descriptions can be obtained directly from CONFOR, provided
that you put enough thought into the preparation of the data. See, for example,
Watson, L., and Dallwitz, M. J. (1992). `The Grass Genera of the World.'
1038 pp. (CAB International: Wallingford.)
All except a few pages (such as the introduction) of this book, were generated
and typeset automatically, and were not even read before being sent to the
publishers. (Of course, the material had been read, and checked in other ways,
many times during the years over which the data were built up.) How could you
justify the time that would be spent in going through almost 1000 pages of
descriptions, just to make a few trivial wording changes, which might well
introduce errors and ambiguities? Surely the time could be better spent in
other ways. The first print run of this book is almost sold out, and, rather
than reprinting it, we intend to produce a new edition. This would not be
practical if large amounts of manual editing were involved.
This book also exemplifies the emphasizing of the most significant parts of the
descriptions. The emphasized characters were selected partly by hand, and
partly by the DIAGNOSE command of INTKEY. It is also possible to produce
descriptions consisting only of the most significant parts.
> And I suspect less work is involved if one starts hand work from the first
> DELTA product.
This is definitely not so. You should be using tools such as INTKEY to check
and refine your data as it is gathered. Once manual editing of the output has
started, all subsequent changes have to be made twice, with the attendant risk
> The keys that I have seen have used relatively obscure characters.
The implication seems to be that this is the fault of the program. As I pointed
out above, the person making the key must make subjective judgements about the
`reliability' of the characters; there is no way that the program can do this.
The programs are aids to taxonomic thought and judgement, not substitutes for
> Some [keys] did not allow for all the variation in the description (which
> surprised me).
Inconsistency between keys and descriptions is almost certainly due to editing
of the program output. (There is a very small chance that it could be due to a
program bug. If such bugs are reported, we fix them immediately.)
> [Using the DELTA programs] might improve the quality of my work.
It almost certainly would. I base this statement not on my own judgement (I am
not a taxonomist), but on what users of DELTA have told me.
> I think people are not always prepared to admit how much basic taxonomic work
> needs to be done before one starts using DELTA to write a revision.
I don't agree with this approach. You will gain the most benefit if you start
using DELTA right from the start.
> There is the possibility of automatically extracting the information from
> textual descriptions. I'm currently engaged in doing this with the 4 volume
> Flora of NSW which contains description of roughly 5,000 species. I've
> constructed software which reads the text and extracts characters and states.
> ... This is very much work in progress - but the results are already good
> enough to convince me that automatic extraction will be sufficiently accurate
> and complete for the needs of my identification program.
I find it hard to believe that a computer program can extract good comparative
information from textual descriptions. In my experience, even people can't do
it, because the information just isn't there. Also, the synthesis of useful and
meaningful characters from strings of words requires taxonomic judgement. It's
not just a matter of putting a number in front of every word or phrase that has
ever been used in a description, and calling it a character state. For a
Watson, L. (1971). Basic taxonomic data: the need for organization over
presentation and accumulation. Taxon 20, 131-136.
Here is part of a letter from Ingolf Askevold to me, and my reply. Please note
that these were written as personal communications, and might have been worded
more moderately if intended for publication.
> Thanks for your note. Yes, I did receive your question about why I thought
> INTKEY a little user-unfriendly, but I thought I'd replied, also. Sometimes,
> our system here eats things, or it simply got misdirected as also occurs
> around here. Apologies... let's see if I can rethink that problem.
> Essentially, I don't seem to be able to use my data in an intuitively obvious
> way. I'm not sure why. Perhaps I've simply not spent the time on its use that
> is necessary, but it seems to me that use of an expert system should be
> quickly and readily learned without the need for complicated thought. Now, it
> may just be me and my own logic flaws, because something's just not clicking.
> Kids might grasp it faster than I, but then they can master the Rubix Cube
> and video games so much faster, also. I do understand the concepts, I just
> don't seem to be able to act out the processes. There's no doubt, I suppose,
> that a windows application will improve that. The pull-down menu is certainly
> a great idea and is vastly superior to something like the PAUP 2.4.1 command-
> line program. Somehow, INTKEY still just doesn't fall into place the way I
> expect it to. Maybe that's the operative term, expectation? Now, if it were
> me alone thinking this I'd simply have to say that the flaws are mine alone
> also. However, I know of others who are similarly confused by INTKEY. One
> fellow with **** even completely rewrote algorithms to suit what he thought
> more in line with the "expert system" idea ... . He used the general concept
> of the DELTA data base format but rendered it less syntax sensitive and added
> a lot of little windows and the like to be able to use data in a way that
> seems more obvious and simple to me. He loaded his system on my machine, and
> in a couple of minutes I was able to use the system quite readily (though
> oddly enough there seemed to be some problem actually getting the
> identification itself! - so that's not perfect either). I've used a Mac
> system on chalcidoid wasps that we simply loaded on, and in a few seconds I
> was running around the data with ease. There's a great deal of interest in
> expert systems in granting agencies over here now, and it would not be too
> hard to secure grant funds in our present academic environment. While DELTA
> is touted as the "industry standard", it remains to be seen if INTKEY is
> really the right thing unless it is markedly improved. The USDA, DOD and
> other people SIMPLY WON'T USE IT IF IT'S NOT USER-FRIENDLY ENOUGH. And that
> will translate into lack of grant support very quickly - it's got to have the
> whistles and bells, but also has to be able to generate results along simple,
> very obvious pathways. People on this side of the pond are not tremendously
> technical in their abilities, and while this may be frustrating to
> programmers and program developers such as yourself, I'm merely relating what
> I perceive here - and include myself among those with limited capabilities!
> My point after all this digression, is not that DELTA is bad, Mike. In
> COMPARISON with some other software such as PAUP 2.4.1 and HENNIG86, the
> documentation is really fine, as I told you personally. I think my
> observation is that if I, among entomologists, with my own background and
> computer ability (as limited as it is) am having trouble with INTKEY, then it
> seems logical to me to suppose that the less computer literate among
> entomologists are surely going to have much more difficulty with it. ...
> But what is it specifically about INTKEY that seems user-unfriendly? I'm not
> sure I can put my finger on it. I simply don't seem to get to the answers I
> think I ought to get to, and I don't know why. Sometimes it seems the logic I
> use is the reverse of that under which INTKEY operates. As a result, I don't
> find myself using it for the purposes it seems I could if I could just grasp
> the thing. For example, I should be able to select a taxon and diagnose it,
> but as I try to do so I simply don't get what I expect, and it's frustrating.
> ... I realize I'm not being especially helpful in pointing to specific
> shortfalls in INTKEY. ... I would expect that a Windows version should be
> able to, for example:
> Pull down a "diagnose" bar, automatically presenting me with the list of
> taxa; I click on the taxon of choice, and it spits out the list of data and
> what not unique to that taxon (or shared with certain other taxa); compare
> that taxon with any other taxa for similarities and differences; send any of
> these data to a clipboard so that they can be used to write aspects of
> taxonomic monographs; and perhaps other things that presently don't come to
> Now, I know you're going to tell me it can already do most of that? Well, why
> can't I seem to actually get that done? Why can't I just type in INTKEY at
> the C: prompt and run about that data as simply as I'd like to? Something's
> just not intuitively obvious enough. The general criticism I've heard from
> various individuals is simply the generalized insult that the people who do
> the programming are just that, programmers, or worse, even main-frame
> programmers; the implication of that is merely that developers know too
> damned much about what they are doing, even program for the sake of
> programming, and can't/don't get things simplified enough for the dumb grunts
> at the starting level! ...
I have seen quite a few interactive identification systems, many of which are
quite easy to use, in the sense that you can start the program and immediately
do something with it. However, I consider all of the ones I have seen to be
essentially toys, which are incapable of giving the kinds of results that would
be needed by someone wanting to achieve accurate and efficient identification
(and information retrieval) with substantial data sets.
The following paragraph is a summary of the features of INTKEY. I consider (in
the light of actual experience, not just speculation) that most of these are
very important in achieving good results. If you evaluate other interactive
identification programs against this list, you will find that most are very
deficient. The problem is not just to make a user-friendly program, but a user-
friendly one that has all of these features (and has them easily accessible).
Unfortunately, some of the modes of operation that might make the program easy
for beginners tend to make it very clumsy for more experienced users. INTKEY
has such modes, but you will seldom see a data set distributed with these modes
turned on, because of their clumsiness for general use. (I will give a specific
INTKEY offers better and more comprehensive features than any similar
program. These features include: entry and deletion of attributes in any
order during an identification; calculation of the `best' characters for
use in identification; the ability to allow for errors (whether made by the
user or in the data); the ability to express variability or uncertainty in
attributes; optional display of notes on characters and character state
definitions; direct handling of numeric values, including ranges of values
and non-contiguous sets of values; the ability to alter the treatments of
unknowns, inapplicables and overlapping values, as required for different
applications (flexibility in this respect being particularly significant in
relation to identification versus information retrieval); retrieving free-
text information (that is, information not encoded in terms of the
character list); freedom to carry out operations in any order (for example,
displaying taxon descriptions or differences during the course of an
identification); automatic handling of characters that become inapplicable
when other characters take certain values; restricting operations to
subsets of characters or taxa; defining keywords to represent subsets of
characters and taxa; locating characters by included words, and taxa
directly by name; no limits on numbers of taxa, characters, and character
states; no limits on lengths of taxon names and character definitions;
specifying `character reliabilities' appropriate for particular purposes;
obtaining lists of taxa possessing or lacking particular attributes or
combinations of attributes; preparing lists of taxa uncoded for particular
characters or sets of characters; listing similarities or differences
between taxa, with the ability to vary the interpretations of `similarity'
and `difference'; describing taxa in terms of nominated sets of characters;
generating diagnosic descriptions for specimens or taxa, to specified
degrees of redundancy; coalescing descriptions (e.g. to generate accurate
generic descriptions from species descriptions); input of complex or
lengthy sequences of commands from files; selective output of results to
files; generating files suitable for input to other DELTA programs (for
example, to highlight diagnostic features in printed descriptions); screen
display of illustrations of characters and taxa; complete on-line help; and
acceptable response times with large sets of data. The program can easily
be translated into other languages (French, German, and Portuguese versions
are currently available).
I don't know whether you are right that people won't use a program if it's not
`user-friendly' (i.e. doesn't require any significant time to learn to use it).
I think they will if they are sufficiently motivated (e.g. word processors,
draw programs, Hennig86, early versions of PAUP; or, for that matter, driving a
car). However, I am well aware (but find it extremely frustrating) that many
people view learning to use a program very differently to learning almost
anything else. They quite accept that they will spend years obtaining a degree
and later gaining practical experience to enable them to do their job, but are
extremely reluctant to spend a few days (or even hours or minutes) learning to
use a program that would greatly help them in their work, and would repay the
investment in time many times over.
We are, of course, continually trying to improve the programs, within the
constraints imposed by our available resources. The comments that we find most
valuable are specific ones, such as the ones you made about DIAGNOSE. INTKEY
can, in fact, be made to give a diagnosis in a way very similar to what you
described (the main difference being absence of mouse control, which will, of
course, be in the Windows version). First, enter the command DISPLAY KEYWORDS
OFF, or put it in INTKEY.INI (more about this later). Then enter DIAGNOSE (or
select it from the main menu). Cursor to the required taxon in the list which
will appear, and hit Enter. When the next menu appears, hit Enter again. Surely
that isn't very difficult! You may, of course, find that the results are
meaningless, perhaps because certain characters should have been excluded
first, because the character reliabilities were inappropriate, or because you
should have used an ABSOLUTE/PERCENTAGE ERROR directive in the CONFOR TOINT
run. I don't consider this a failing of the program; there is no substitute for
understanding what you are doing. I don't thing that there are many programs
which will generate pearls of scientific wisdom whenever you click on a random
selection of icons. If you want to save the output on a file, use the FILE
OUTPUT or FILE LOG commands.
Why, I expect you will be asking, don't we make DISPLAY KEYWORDS OFF the
default? Because, in general, it leads to clumsy operation. Try it - I don't
think you will like it. If you do, simply put it in your INTKEY.INI and it
effectively becomes the default. The `keywords' concept is central to using
INTKEY, and is really essential for handling moderate to large data sets
effectively. However, it seems to be a stumbling block for beginners, which is
why we put in the DISPLAY KEYWORDS OFF option. Unfortunately, if you make this
the default, you are, in the end, imposing the additional burden of finding out
that it can be cancelled, and how to do it.
Another option you might like to try is SET AUTOBEST 1000; again, after you
have used it awhile, you will probably find you don't like it.
Mike Dallwitz Internet md at ento.csiro.au
CSIRO Division of Entomology Fax +61 6 246 4000
GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601, Australia Phone +61 6 246 4075
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