On the level of these messages - AGAIN!
Mauro Jose Cavalcanti
maurobio at PUB3.LNCC.BR
Wed Jul 12 14:20:08 CDT 1995
>way except his way because his are so much better! This patently self-
>serving statement is absolute bullshit.
- Michel A. Ivie
Recently, I've tried to call your attention to the low level of
these discussions on TAXACOM, that in my (obviously biased)
opinion would not result in anything useful to our community as a
Then, I've been bombed by the ideas (?) below (to which the low
words above - probably the only ones that guy, Michel Ivie, knows
- would surely apply):-
>Hi from Prague, the heart of Europe
>I have got following message.. (bellow). I am wonder if some third world
>countries can ask for return type material or all beetles of their country back
>to their very bad maintained museum where all will go for sure destruction.
>Vratislav Richard Bejsak
>Coleoptera - Australia, Tenebrionidae
>130 00 Prague 3 Zizkov
>voice: (42+2) 270 849
>fax : (41+2) 311 6545
>email: 76711,1261 at compuserve.com
>(I am from Australia, this address is for one or two years)
(Well, sorry for the Australians - I really *had* a higher
opinion of them!)
And to the stupid enough above words, we can add the following
(again by that guy, Michel Ivie - I hope this "cretino"
[Portuguese for ass, donkey, and related words] *never* put his
feet here at Rio de Janeiro...):
>awaiting our community. Say whatever you may about systematists, we do
>maintain pretty good communications between rich (first-world, northern,
>colonialist, developted) and poor (or choose your own modifier) countries.
If the communications between us, the "poor", and you, the
"rich", are really "pretty good", what if they would rather
>Now, if you groups of scientists from the same basic cultural viewpoint,
>with the same legal and governmental values, the same language, and in
>many cases the same gene pool can go nuts on this, what about countries
>without those ties?
It seems that in the opinion of this cretino, to be a high-level
scientist is not only a question of hemisphere, but also a
genetically determined one!!! Heil, Hitler!!!
By the way, "dear colleagues", have you all "the same language"
of this cretino???
>What about the museum in outer bango bango that doesn't have a working roof?
>If New Zealand gets its types back under this code, who can deny OBB?
>Perhaps it would be a good thing for us to have a frank discussion of the
>implications of this treaty for all. Can you imagine the Natural History
>Museum justifying its budget if it had to return all the material in it
>to Outer Bango Bango? Would the systematist in Outer Bango Bango, or Montana
>be better off with our material "back", but without the library supported
>in London? Isn't the inconvienence of having to travel to Washington, London,
>or Paris offset by the increadible resources we can access there? What if
"Outer Bango Bango" - come on!
>Being in what has been called a third-world state, I feel rather safe in
>starting this discussion. But I think we should not start out with the
>tone "how dare they want my speciems in their crummy little country" (which
>I detected already in some messages), but we should also avoid the "a ha!
>we've got you colonial bastards this time" too. This is a critical issue
>to the form of our community into the next millenium.
This wholly cynical closing comment really is in accordance with
the Portuguese meaning of "cretino"...
>Michael A. Ivie
>Department of Entomology
>Montana State University
>Bozeman, MT 59717 USA
This last pearl adds a little bit of shamelessness to all the above
As for the tone of the previous comments on this subject, I noted
irrational prejudice on both sides. There are, indeed, bombs in poor
countries and poorly maintained institutions in rich ones. Let us deal with
facts, not stereotypes.
joseph at bio2.com
Well, bombs *do not* destroy our natural history collections, as
they are doing at Serbia, Bosnia and other parts of "the heart of
Europe", nor our public buildings, for that matter, as recently
happened at USA (by the way, wasn't one of that crazy guys from
Montana?). Also, we had never had to face Russian's tanks (as
those at Prague, the heart of Europe, in 1968) to visit and work
at our "poorly maintained institutions"...
Come out from your stupid artificial world of "Biosphere 2" and
see the *real* planet Earth!
Fortunately, one Australian advanced an interesting and
constructive idea (remember that Australia's first non-aboriginal
colonists were British convicts!):-
>As Jim Croft recently suggested - every species name could have its own
>URL on the Internet which could include photographs, description,
>label information, protologue, etc. along with an address, etc. whereby
>one may see the specimen by video.
>This is not fanciful - it is all possible now!
>Arthur D. Chapman [Scientific Coordinator, Biogeographic Information, ERIN]
>Environmental Resources Information Network internet: arthur at erin.gov.au
>GPO Box 787, Canberra, voice: +61-6-274 1066
>ACT 2601, AUSTRALIA fax: +61-6-274 1333
My last words:-
I feel really hurt, sad, and disappointed. I had always envisaged
the TAXACOM list as a virtual space by means of which
well-educated scientists from the whole world could exchange
knowledge, constructive ideas, projects, tools, and so on, aiming
at mankind's progress and improvement (a too optimistic view,
perhaps!). This was, indeed, the vision I had of the whole
Internet. But what I've seen is that you, scientists from the
"heart of the world", that love of talking about "political
correctness" (!!), seem interested only in engaging yourselves in
"flame wars" against each other (see the persistent attacks on
DELTA and "Mike. D"'s *useful* work) and use the list as if it
were your own local BBS (and a badly managed one, where low
words, racist opinions, and colonialist ideas can be freely
disseminated - where's the Administrator of this list?). Also,
behind this discussion on the return of natural history
collections to their countries of origin - from which they were
frequently *stolen* - is question of us, the genetically
impoverished people from the End of the World, having or not the
right to do science itself...
I do not need to stay here to be offended - furthermore, I have
some more useful things to do instead of wasting my time replying
to your unpolished opinions and words (as trying to do some
science, for example). Fighting day by day against shortage (or
lack thereof) of research funds in "poorly maintened
institutions" is already difficult enough!!!
I believe that these two guys, Bejsak and Ivie, should have to
send the whole world a public apology - or be removed from the
list (again, I would like to ask: where's the Administrator of
TAXACOM?). But since this is only the biased belief of a poor
native from an undeveloped third-world country (or perhaps only a
monkey trained to use a keyboard), I can see no point in
prolonging this discussion (and my TAXACOM subscription) further.
So, I'm leaving the list - there are thousands of other
discussion lists over the Internet, and I still hope to find out
a more civilized one!
My sincere thanks to all of you who have provided kind words,
constructive criticisms, good ideas, incentive, useful references,
addresses, and software: meu bom amigo Joe, as well as Fred,
Nicholas, Mike, Eric, Rick++, Hellmuth, Terry, and Ann F. R. (a
tender kiss to you, lady!).
+ - - - - - - - - - - - Prof. Mauro J. Cavalcanti - - - - - - - - - - - +
| Departamento de Biologia Geral Universidade Santa Ursula |
| Rua Fernando Ferrari, 75, Botafogo 22231-040, Rio de Janeiro, RJ |
| Phone: +55 (021) 551-5542 ext 151 BRASIL |
| Internet: maurobio at omega.lncc.br |
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