susanne71_2000 at YAHOO.DE
Fri Oct 25 22:38:59 CDT 2002
> Now for a couple of questions. Would an
> entomologist use both Tenthredinoidea sensu lato and sensu stricto
> formally in a published classification?
Yes, that's what I was talking about. Lars Vilhelmsen, who came up with
this classification (I believe) and I are using it (see, for example,
my new paper in the October issue of Cladistics).
> If so, what would one call
> the whole
> Tenthredinoidea (since the extinct Family Xyelotomidae splits off
> even before Blasticotomidae)? Maybe "sensu latissimo"?
Rasnitsyn, the expert for fossil Hymenoptera, does not distinguish
Tenthredinoidea s.l. and s.str. He just uses one name, Tenthredinoidea,
for Tenthredinoidea sensu lato including the fossils. That's also
maintained in the new book on the history of insects by him and Donald
Quicke which just came out this summer (see page 244). (Alexandr P.
Rasnitsyn and Donald L.J. Quicke (editors), 2002: History of Insects.
Kluwer Academic Publishers. ISBN 1-4020-0026-X)
I only work with extant taxa (so far), but I think that in many cases
there is no extra name for a clade comprising an extant taxon plus a
fossil sister taxon. Anyway, be it as it may, you can name it whatever
you want. But I really don't think we need another name there.
> But I think you can see how this could potentially cause
> plus more problems if you find yet another family that splits off
> before Xyelotomidae. Although this is not a case of "competing
> between authors, it is "competing usages" within a single
You tend to make things appear more complicated than they really are...
> I'm sure phylocode would mandate separate names, but I wonder if the
> says anything about using two different usages in the same
> (even if they are labelled sensu stricto and sensu lato)? Perhaps I
> ask that last question on the ICZN list.
I've been told that the ICZN doesn't care. But I'm not the right person
to ask about this.
But you get me starting to wonder that it might be problematical that
we now have two groups with the superfamily ending -oidea, of which one
is contained in the other and therefore must have a different rank. The
superfamily really is Tenthredinoidea s.l., so Tenthredinoidea s.str.
is somewhere between superfamily and family level in spite of having a
superfamily ending. Hmm. Ah well, I've got more important things to
worry about. I'm not going to break my head over this, as we say in
Maybe others have similar cases in their groups?
Division of Invertebrate Zoology
American Museum of Natural History
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New York, NY 10024
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