Blaming the victim (the Linnaean System)

Kipling Will kiplingw at NATURE.BERKELEY.EDU
Mon Feb 10 16:48:59 CST 2003


Ken, you confuse issues here. The idea of mandating the naming of all
clades or even a percentage of all clades obviously won't work and isn't
done (can you cite any recent proposal to do so?). That fact does not
lend support to your classification notions. If "dinosaur science" has
over-named its groups it has nothing to do with cladistic methods or
classification methods in general. Just because dinosaur or mammal
cladists may have exceeded your standard for a useful number of names
this has no effect my naming of insect clades, etc.

Most good systematists are aware that a useful number of names for group
is just as many it takes to identify biologically important and
hopefully stable clades. Name-mongering for its own sake should be
shamed and stuffed in peer review.

This issue has nothing to do with problems of formally naming
paraphyletic taxa, although you have often coupled it in your arguments
against "strict cladism" as some sort of fatal flaw of cladistics and
justification for your system. If that is not a strawman what is?

kip



Ken Kinman wrote:
>
> Kipling,
>     It's not a strawman argument at all.  First of all, it wouldn't take the
> formal naming of 100% of the splits to bog down the system.  I should think
> 20% would be more than enough to bog it down pretty well, especially in
> groups with lots of fossils.   If dinosaur science is any indication of the
> future direction of strict cladism across the board, we are going to be in
> deep trouble.  One annoying habit is that most node-based taxa result in a
> corresponding (slightly different) stem-base taxon (or vice versa), so the
> naming isn't even well distributed.
>      Right now Arctometatarsalia is effectively the same as
> Ornithomimosauria, and worse yet, it doesn't even include most groups with
> the arctometatarsalian character (it turned out to be a polyphyletic group).
>   The dinosaur cladism "experiment" has shown that human nature (being what
> it is) will eventually fill in taxonomic voids (real or imagined) with
> formal names, and often very prematurely so.  And as I said above, it
> doesn't take 100% saturation to become problematic (far from it), and that
> experiment effectively began only in 1986.  Think of the mess after another
> decade or two of fossils from China (and elsewhere) multiply the number of
> splits (real or imagined).  The track record for resisting formal naming is
> already discouraging.
>      And as if Mammalian systematics didn't have enough clade names already
> (just based on morphology), now we have a plethora of new clades being based
> on preliminary molecular data.  There are so many different overlapping
> taxon combinations cropping up that most will turn out to be paraphyletic at
> best and polyphyletic at worst (not to mention clades that may end up with
> more than one name).  Are names like Cetferungulata really necessary (even
> if it does turn out to be a real clade)?
>      All this (and more) will happen to many other taxa if phylocode is
> implemented no matter how well meaning the intentions of some of its
> authors.  No small wonder it is even being attacked by cladists (especially
> some of the older ones with more experience).  The signs are there for
> anyone who wants to see them, so strawman arguments simply aren't necessary.
>   It is slowly destroying the utility of classifications whether they are
> ranked or not.  We can't continue shooting ourselves in the foot like this.
>            ------- Ken Kinman
>
> ******************************************
> >From: Kipling Will <kiplingw at NATURE.BERKELEY.EDU>
> >Reply-To: Kipling Will <kiplingw at NATURE.BERKELEY.EDU>
> >To: TAXACOM at USOBI.ORG
> >Subject: Re: Blaming the victim (the Linnaean System)
> >Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 10:03:45 -0800
> >
> >I do understand that neither of us is talking about getting rid of the
> >group-within-group hierarchy or even the names for clades. The issue is
> >if there is enough value (information) and utility (helping our brains
> >to wrap around Nature) in formal ranks to keep up the effort to use
> >them. I think there is. One bit is in the explicit exclusive statement
> >that a formal rank makes. IF we agree or you find within one work, such
> >as a monograph, checklist or physical collection, that Insecta is a
> >Class, then all other classes of Animals are excluded. This is not a
> >trivial bit of information in my view. Of course, changing hypotheses on
> >relationships and grouping effects both ranked and unranked systems.
> >
> >Certainly we don't need an nearly endless number of ranks to account for
> >every split. That is just a silly straw-man that Ken K. keeps throwing
> >around. I have yet to meet a cladist (from Ivory towers or otherwise)
> >that thinks this outdated proposition is realistic. Computers on the
> >other hand might do better at keeping track of numerically identified
> >clades (but that is a different issue altogether).
> >
> >"Frederick W. Schueler" wrote:
> > >
> > > Kipling Will wrote:
> > > >
> > > > As you say the non-expert knows he/she has an Insect and so can
> > > > immediately discount all other Classes of Animals that are in other
> > > > parts of the book or library. Not so with a rank-less system since
> > > > Insecta could mean any part of the hierarchy from populations to all
> > > > life. It makes no exclusive statement without a rank or without a
> > > > phylogeny at hand.
> > >
> > > * I'm not sure what I'm being misunderstood as saying here - all I'm
> > > proposing to abandon is categories - the name and taxon Insecta are
> > > still there, with all the rules for forming names, and all the
> > > relationships with super-ordinate and sub-ordianate taxa - it's just
> > > that I'm not saying that Insecta is a something called a "Class" -
> > > whatever that may mean beyond Insecta traditionally being called a
> > > Class.
> > >
> > > fred.
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >--
> >Assistant Professor/Insect Systematist
> >ESPM--Division of Insect Biology
> >University of California
> >201 Wellman Hall
> >Berkeley, CA  94720-3112
> >
> >Office (510)642-4296
> >Main office(510)642-3327
> >FAX (510)642-7428
> >
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> n
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--
Assistant Professor/Insect Systematist
ESPM--Division of Insect Biology
University of California
201 Wellman Hall
Berkeley, CA  94720-3112

Office (510)642-4296
Main office(510)642-3327
FAX (510)642-7428

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