[Taxacom] Tortoise self-rafting sea voyage

Wed Apr 11 13:36:49 CDT 2007

Ha! Ha! J

Dr. John R. Grehan

Director of Science and Collections

Buffalo Museum of Science1020 Humboldt Parkway

Buffalo, NY 14211-1193

email: jgrehan at sciencebuff.org

Phone: (716) 896-5200 ext 372

Panbiogeography

http://www.sciencebuff.org/biogeography_and_evolutionary_biology.php

Ghost moth research

http://www.sciencebuff.org/systematics_and_evolution_of_hepialdiae.php

Human evolution and the great apes

http://www.sciencebuff.org/human_origin_and_the_great_apes.php

________________________________

From: Robin Leech [mailto:releech at telusplanet.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 1:50 PM
To: Michael A. Ivie
Cc: John Grehan; TAXACOM
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Tortoise self-rafting sea voyage

Mainly cuz it is very hard for a bird to lift off with a barnacle
attached to a whale

teehee.

Robin

	----- Original Message ----- 

	From: Michael A. Ivie <mailto:mivie at montana.edu>  

	To: releech at telusplanet.net 

	Cc: John Grehan <mailto:jgrehan at sciencebuff.org>  ; TAXACOM
<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>  

	Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 11:12 AM

	Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Tortoise self-rafting sea voyage

	Why has no one mentioned that the obvious mechanism for
barnacles becoming so widespread is that they are carried from place to
place on floating tortises? :-) 

	releech at telusplanet.net wrote: 

	Gentlemen! Enough! Enough!  We need levity.

	John, your first sentence below almost defies English Grammar.

	Actually, the tortoises were taken to the Indian Ocean Island
locations about 
	30,000 years ago, about the same time, and by the same people,
who peopled 
	Australia.  The tortoises were released, allowed to breed, and
meant to be food 
	for later visits to the islands.  

	Robin Leech

	Quoting John Grehan <jgrehan at sciencebuff.org>
<mailto:jgrehan at sciencebuff.org> :

		Peter et al,

		No, I could not explain how I did not mean that because
that was what I
		was trying to say about how the observation was being
interpreted. It
		seemed that the observation of the tortoise arrival was
seen by the
		authors to be biogeographically significant because it
confirmed an
		assumption that they had already made - the assumption
being that this
		was how the tortoises arrived at their Indian Ocean
island locations. If
		one does not make the assumption, the floatation of the
tortoise has no
		necessary biogeographic meaning. And by "no necessary
biogeographic
		meaning" I am not saying that it has no biogeographic
meaning at all.

		John

		________________________________

		From: Hovenkamp, P. (Peter)
[mailto:Hovenkamp at nhn.leidenuniv.nl] 
		Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 4:09 AM
		To: John Grehan; g.read at niwa.co.nz; TAXACOM
		Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Tortoise self-rafting sea voyage

		To all empirical scientists on this list: 

		I can't help drawing your attention to the apparent
equivalence of these
		two statements:

		"Of course without the assumption the floatation is no
more
		biogeographically singificant than  (...)" 

		and

		"An observation is only biogeographically significant if
it confirms an
		assumption already made"

		John, could you please explain how you did not mean
this?

		Peter Hovenkamp

		________________________________

		Van: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu namens John
Grehan
		Verzonden: di 10-4-2007 14:31
		Aan: g.read at niwa.co.nz; TAXACOM
		Onderwerp: Re: [Taxacom] Tortoise self-rafting sea
voyage

		I noticed the nice propaganda statement in the link as
follows:

		"trans-oceanic dispersal is assumed to be the mechanism
by which
		tortoises and many other animals became established on
islands
		throughout the world"

		It's propadanda because it implies that everyone makes
this assumption.
		Of course without the assumption the floatation is no
more
		biogeographically singificant than the thousands of bugs
that fly to New
		Zealand every year.

		This all comes down to the dichotomy between the belief
that individual
		cases of mobility are the test of biogeography, or
whether spatial
		analysis is the test of the biogeographic signficance of
individual
		mobility.

		John Grehan

			-----Original Message-----
			From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
[mailto:taxacom-
			bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Geoff
Read
			Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 5:25 PM
			To: TAXACOM
			Subject: [Taxacom] Tortoise self-rafting sea
voyage

			Interesting report on a large tortoise which
walked out of the sea on

		a

			Tanzania beach, reckoned to have drifted from
Aldabra atoll (740km).

		It

			had a lovely crop of barnacles.

			Gerlach, J., Muir, C. & Richmond, M.D. (2006)
The first substantiated
			case of trans-oceanic tortoise dispersal.
Journal of Natural History,
			40, 2403 - 2408.

http://www.informaworld.com/openurl?genre=article&title=Journal%20of%20N
		at

ural%20History&issn=0022%2d2933&volume=40&issue=41&spage=2403&epage=2408
		&d

oi=10%2e1080%2f00222930601058290&date=2006&atitle=The%20first%20substant
		ia

ted%20case%20of%20trans%2doceanic%20tortoise%20dispersal&aulast=Gerlach&
		au

first=Justin&auinit=D%2e&sid=informa%3ainformaworld

			Geoff
			--
			   Geoff Read <g.read at niwa.co.nz>
<mailto:g.read at niwa.co.nz> 
			    http://www.annelida.net/
			    http://www.niwascience.co.nz/ncabb/

			_______________________________________________
			Taxacom mailing list
			Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu

http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom

		_______________________________________________
		Taxacom mailing list
		Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
		http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom

		_______________________________________________
		Taxacom mailing list
		Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
		http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom

	_______________________________________________
	Taxacom mailing list
	Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
	http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom

	-- 
	__________________________________________________
	NOTE NEW ADDRESS:

	Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.

	For Postal Service Delivery:            For FedEx, UPS or
Freight Delivery:

	Montana Entomology Collection      Montana Entomology Collection
- MSU
	Montana State University                Marsh Labs, Room 50
	P.O. Box 173020                           1901 S. 19th Ave, Room
50
	Bozeman, MT 59717-3020            Bozeman, MT 59717
	USA                                              USA

	(406) 994-4610 (voice)
	(406) 994-6029 (FAX)
	mivie at montana.edu