[Taxacom] Lightening up on Pongidae (was: orangutan outrage)

[John Grehan]

Assume whatever you like. But I would still be interested to see you
post your scientific argument against panbiogeography.

John Grehan

-----Original Message-----
From: mivie at montana.edu [mailto:mivie at montana.edu] 
Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 1:08 PM
To: John Grehan
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Lightening up on Pongidae (was: orangutan
outrage)

LOL, I have never seen any evidence you have any sense of humor, decent
or otherwise.  Plus, I kind of doubt you have any Afrocentric friends
either, so it might just be beyond your cultural breadth.

;-)


>
> I may lack a decent sense of humor, but I see nothing funny about 
> bigotry of this kind and even less so in its dissemination.
>
> John Grehan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mivie at montana.edu [mailto:mivie at montana.edu]
> Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 12:23 PM
> To: John Grehan
> Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: Lightening up on Pongidae (was: orangutan outrage)
>
> OK, speaking of things that could be ignored, I just heard the most 
> amazing explanation of Grehan's vehemence on this subject from an 
> Afrocentric friend, and given John's idea that silly theoretical 
> constructs should not be ignored, thought I would share it.
>
> The rejection of an African sister-group to humans in favor of an 
> Asian one is simply another example of the dominant eurasian 
> scientific elites trying to deny yet again the importance of African 
> contributions to history.  I.E. those who oppose the Homo-Pan sister
pair are racists.
> This logic has as much basis (or lack thereof) as some presented on 
> this listserver.
>
> But, it IS funny.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>>
>> What I see in the responses by Richard Zander and Ken Kinman is this 
>> determination that the molecular evidence is really, really, right no

>> matter how it is contradicted by the morphological evidence. And by 
>> hook or by crook they (or the molecular theorists) are going to find 
>> an 'explanation' (excuse) to explain away the morphological anomaly.
>> The idea that bean counting of DNA bases is the essence of phylogeny 
>> is now so entrenched that I doubt anyone who has walked out on this 
>> plank will be able to back away (especially if they have claimed that

>> the chimpanzee theory is fact). Of course I have walked out on an 
>> even
>
>> longer plank against popular opinion. But then only a few decades 
>> back
>
>> panbiogeography was ridiculed out of hand, and while it is now just 
>> generally ignored (standard scientific procedure by the majority - 
>> one
>
>> technique that should be taught to students in science classes so 
>> they
>
>> can recognize it in themselves or others), one can no longer get away

>> with ridicule.
>>
>> John Grehan
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Kenneth 
>> Kinman
>> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 10:18 PM
>> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>> Subject: [Taxacom] Pongidae (was: orangutan outrage)
>>
>> Richard Zander wrote:
>>      If gorilla and pan were on a very short shared branch that did 
>> not show up in molecular cladograms, then the paraphyletic group 
>> homo-pongo would be the ancestor of gorilla-pan (mapping the traits 
>> that characterize the taxa). Any evidence for a short molecular 
>> branch
>
>> connecting gorilla and pan?
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>  Dear All,
>>       Richard Zander brings up a very important point.  The group 
>> "Homo-Pongo" (and their extinct relatives) could very well have 
>> paraphyletically given rise to a Gorilla-Pan clade.  If so, one might

>> regard gorillas as just overgrown chimps.  This would not surprise me

>> in the least.  And it would also mean that the morphological 
>> similarities between humans and orangutans are retained 
>> plesiomorphies
>
>> of the great apes that were subsequently lost in a Gorilla-Pan clade.
>>       That is why I think a thorough evaluation of great ape genomes 
>> is so important.  Whether the first such evaluation is "thorough"
>> enough to convince the vast majority of scientists remains to be
seen.
>
>> My own personal expectation is that it will support an African clade 
>> (Gorilla, Pan, and Homo) with orangutans as an outgroup (sorry,
John).
>
>> However, I have no strong expectations whether Pan (chimps) will 
>> clade
> exclusively
>> with gorillas or with humans.  We shall see.   Until then, I see no
> need
>> to comment further.  And as I have pointed out several times, my 
>> Family Pongidae will remain paraphyletic with respect to Family 
>> Hominidae no matter what the results are.  The results will only 
>> affect which genus of Pongidae that I will code as the sister group 
>> to
> Hominidae.
>>            --------Ken Kinman
>>
>>
>>
>>
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