[Taxacom] Lightening up on Pongidae (was: orangutan outrage)

Robin Leech releech at telus.net
Sat Jun 27 12:28:54 CDT 2009


C'mon guys!  This is no longer scientific.  This kind of
personal bun fight should not be allowed on Taxacom.
And Mike, you surprise me.
Robin Leech

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Grehan" <jgrehan at sciencebuff.org>
To: <mivie at montana.edu>
Cc: <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Lightening up on Pongidae (was: orangutan outrage)


>
> Assume whatever you like. But I would still be interested to see you
> post your scientific argument against panbiogeography.
>
> John Grehan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mivie at montana.edu [mailto:mivie at montana.edu]
> Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 1:08 PM
> To: John Grehan
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Lightening up on Pongidae (was: orangutan
> outrage)
>
> LOL, I have never seen any evidence you have any sense of humor, decent
> or otherwise.  Plus, I kind of doubt you have any Afrocentric friends
> either, so it might just be beyond your cultural breadth.
>
> ;-)
>
>
>>
>> I may lack a decent sense of humor, but I see nothing funny about
>> bigotry of this kind and even less so in its dissemination.
>>
>> John Grehan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mivie at montana.edu [mailto:mivie at montana.edu]
>> Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 12:23 PM
>> To: John Grehan
>> Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>> Subject: Lightening up on Pongidae (was: orangutan outrage)
>>
>> OK, speaking of things that could be ignored, I just heard the most
>> amazing explanation of Grehan's vehemence on this subject from an
>> Afrocentric friend, and given John's idea that silly theoretical
>> constructs should not be ignored, thought I would share it.
>>
>> The rejection of an African sister-group to humans in favor of an
>> Asian one is simply another example of the dominant eurasian
>> scientific elites trying to deny yet again the importance of African
>> contributions to history.  I.E. those who oppose the Homo-Pan sister
> pair are racists.
>> This logic has as much basis (or lack thereof) as some presented on
>> this listserver.
>>
>> But, it IS funny.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> What I see in the responses by Richard Zander and Ken Kinman is this
>>> determination that the molecular evidence is really, really, right no
>
>>> matter how it is contradicted by the morphological evidence. And by
>>> hook or by crook they (or the molecular theorists) are going to find
>>> an 'explanation' (excuse) to explain away the morphological anomaly.
>>> The idea that bean counting of DNA bases is the essence of phylogeny
>>> is now so entrenched that I doubt anyone who has walked out on this
>>> plank will be able to back away (especially if they have claimed that
>
>>> the chimpanzee theory is fact). Of course I have walked out on an
>>> even
>>
>>> longer plank against popular opinion. But then only a few decades
>>> back
>>
>>> panbiogeography was ridiculed out of hand, and while it is now just
>>> generally ignored (standard scientific procedure by the majority -
>>> one
>>
>>> technique that should be taught to students in science classes so
>>> they
>>
>>> can recognize it in themselves or others), one can no longer get away
>
>>> with ridicule.
>>>
>>> John Grehan
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>>> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Kenneth
>>> Kinman
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 10:18 PM
>>> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>>> Subject: [Taxacom] Pongidae (was: orangutan outrage)
>>>
>>> Richard Zander wrote:
>>>      If gorilla and pan were on a very short shared branch that did
>>> not show up in molecular cladograms, then the paraphyletic group
>>> homo-pongo would be the ancestor of gorilla-pan (mapping the traits
>>> that characterize the taxa). Any evidence for a short molecular
>>> branch
>>
>>> connecting gorilla and pan?
>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>  Dear All,
>>>       Richard Zander brings up a very important point.  The group
>>> "Homo-Pongo" (and their extinct relatives) could very well have
>>> paraphyletically given rise to a Gorilla-Pan clade.  If so, one might
>
>>> regard gorillas as just overgrown chimps.  This would not surprise me
>
>>> in the least.  And it would also mean that the morphological
>>> similarities between humans and orangutans are retained
>>> plesiomorphies
>>
>>> of the great apes that were subsequently lost in a Gorilla-Pan clade.
>>>       That is why I think a thorough evaluation of great ape genomes
>>> is so important.  Whether the first such evaluation is "thorough"
>>> enough to convince the vast majority of scientists remains to be
> seen.
>>
>>> My own personal expectation is that it will support an African clade
>>> (Gorilla, Pan, and Homo) with orangutans as an outgroup (sorry,
> John).
>>
>>> However, I have no strong expectations whether Pan (chimps) will
>>> clade
>> exclusively
>>> with gorillas or with humans.  We shall see.   Until then, I see no
>> need
>>> to comment further.  And as I have pointed out several times, my
>>> Family Pongidae will remain paraphyletic with respect to Family
>>> Hominidae no matter what the results are.  The results will only
>>> affect which genus of Pongidae that I will code as the sister group
>>> to
>> Hominidae.
>>>            --------Ken Kinman
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Taxacom Mailing List
>>> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>>> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
>>>
>>> The Taxacom archive going back to 1992 may be searched with either of
>
>>> these methods:
>>>
>>> (1) http://taxacom.markmail.org
>>>
>>> Or (2) a Google search specified as:
>>> site:mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom  your search terms here
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Taxacom Mailing List
>>> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>>> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
>>>
>>> The Taxacom archive going back to 1992 may be searched with either of
>
>>> these methods:
>>>
>>> (1) http://taxacom.markmail.org
>>>
>>> Or (2) a Google search specified as:
>>> site:mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom  your search terms here
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Taxacom Mailing List
>> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
>>
>> The Taxacom archive going back to 1992 may be searched with either of
>> these methods:
>>
>> (1) http://taxacom.markmail.org
>>
>> Or (2) a Google search specified as:
>> site:mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom  your search terms here
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Taxacom Mailing List
> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
>
> The Taxacom archive going back to 1992 may be searched with either of 
> these methods:
>
> (1) http://taxacom.markmail.org
>
> Or (2) a Google search specified as: 
> site:mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom  your search terms here 





More information about the Taxacom mailing list