[Taxacom] Ivie Message NOT sent to Taxacom

mivie at montana.edu mivie at montana.edu
Sat Jun 27 12:50:52 CDT 2009


Dear Taxacomers,

Please note, the message attributed to me below was NOT sent to Taxacom. 
Check your in box, no such message was received from me.  I agree with
Robin, this does not belong in your mailboxes, and I
apologize for John Grehan's inappropriate use of this listserver!! 
Sending messages to the listserver in other people's name, or sending
other peoples work without their permission is a violation of the terms of
use of Taxacom.  John Greham should be banned, and you can ban me too.

Michael Ivie


> C'mon guys!  This is no longer scientific.  This kind of
> personal bun fight should not be allowed on Taxacom.
> And Mike, you surprise me.
> Robin Leech
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Grehan" <jgrehan at sciencebuff.org>
> To: <mivie at montana.edu>
> Cc: <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 11:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Lightening up on Pongidae (was: orangutan
outrage)
>
>
>> Assume whatever you like. But I would still be interested to see you
post your scientific argument against panbiogeography.
>> John Grehan
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mivie at montana.edu [mailto:mivie at montana.edu]
>> Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 1:08 PM
>> To: John Grehan
>> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Lightening up on Pongidae (was: orangutan outrage)
>> LOL, I have never seen any evidence you have any sense of humor, decent
or otherwise.  Plus, I kind of doubt you have any Afrocentric friends
either, so it might just be beyond your cultural breadth.
>> ;-)
>>> I may lack a decent sense of humor, but I see nothing funny about
bigotry of this kind and even less so in its dissemination.
>>> John Grehan
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: mivie at montana.edu [mailto:mivie at montana.edu]
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 12:23 PM
>>> To: John Grehan
>>> Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>>> Subject: Lightening up on Pongidae (was: orangutan outrage)
>>> OK, speaking of things that could be ignored, I just heard the most
amazing explanation of Grehan's vehemence on this subject from an
Afrocentric friend, and given John's idea that silly theoretical
constructs should not be ignored, thought I would share it.
>>> The rejection of an African sister-group to humans in favor of an
Asian one is simply another example of the dominant eurasian
>>> scientific elites trying to deny yet again the importance of African
contributions to history.  I.E. those who oppose the Homo-Pan sister
>> pair are racists.
>>> This logic has as much basis (or lack thereof) as some presented on
this listserver.
>>> But, it IS funny.
>>> Mike
>>>> What I see in the responses by Richard Zander and Ken Kinman is this
determination that the molecular evidence is really, really, right no
matter how it is contradicted by the morphological evidence. And by
hook or by crook they (or the molecular theorists) are going to find
an 'explanation' (excuse) to explain away the morphological anomaly.
The idea that bean counting of DNA bases is the essence of phylogeny
is now so entrenched that I doubt anyone who has walked out on this
plank will be able to back away (especially if they have claimed that
the chimpanzee theory is fact). Of course I have walked out on an
even
>>>> longer plank against popular opinion. But then only a few decades back
>>>> panbiogeography was ridiculed out of hand, and while it is now just
generally ignored (standard scientific procedure by the majority -
one
>>>> technique that should be taught to students in science classes so they
>>>> can recognize it in themselves or others), one can no longer get away
with ridicule.
>>>> John Grehan
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>>>> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Kenneth Kinman
>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 10:18 PM
>>>> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>>>> Subject: [Taxacom] Pongidae (was: orangutan outrage)
>>>> Richard Zander wrote:
>>>>      If gorilla and pan were on a very short shared branch that did
>>>> not show up in molecular cladograms, then the paraphyletic group
homo-pongo would be the ancestor of gorilla-pan (mapping the traits
that characterize the taxa). Any evidence for a short molecular
branch
>>>> connecting gorilla and pan?
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>  Dear All,
>>>>       Richard Zander brings up a very important point.  The group
>>>> "Homo-Pongo" (and their extinct relatives) could very well have
paraphyletically given rise to a Gorilla-Pan clade.  If so, one might
regard gorillas as just overgrown chimps.  This would not surprise me
in the least.  And it would also mean that the morphological
>>>> similarities between humans and orangutans are retained
>>>> plesiomorphies
>>>> of the great apes that were subsequently lost in a Gorilla-Pan clade.
>>>>       That is why I think a thorough evaluation of great ape genomes
>>>> is so important.  Whether the first such evaluation is "thorough"
enough to convince the vast majority of scientists remains to be
>> seen.
>>>> My own personal expectation is that it will support an African clade
(Gorilla, Pan, and Homo) with orangutans as an outgroup (sorry,
>> John).
>>>> However, I have no strong expectations whether Pan (chimps) will clade
>>> exclusively
>>>> with gorillas or with humans.  We shall see.   Until then, I see no
>>> need
>>>> to comment further.  And as I have pointed out several times, my
Family Pongidae will remain paraphyletic with respect to Family
Hominidae no matter what the results are.  The results will only
affect which genus of Pongidae that I will code as the sister group
to
>>> Hominidae.
>>>>            --------Ken Kinman
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Taxacom Mailing List
>>>> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>>>> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
>>>> The Taxacom archive going back to 1992 may be searched with either of
these methods:
>>>> (1) http://taxacom.markmail.org
>>>> Or (2) a Google search specified as:
>>>> site:mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom  your search terms here
_______________________________________________
>>>> Taxacom Mailing List
>>>> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>>>> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
>>>> The Taxacom archive going back to 1992 may be searched with either of
these methods:
>>>> (1) http://taxacom.markmail.org
>>>> Or (2) a Google search specified as:
>>>> site:mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom  your search terms here
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Taxacom Mailing List
>>> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>>> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
>>> The Taxacom archive going back to 1992 may be searched with either of
these methods:
>>> (1) http://taxacom.markmail.org
>>> Or (2) a Google search specified as:
>>> site:mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom  your search terms here
>> _______________________________________________
>> Taxacom Mailing List
>> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
>> The Taxacom archive going back to 1992 may be searched with either of
these methods:
>> (1) http://taxacom.markmail.org
>> Or (2) a Google search specified as:
>> site:mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom  your search terms here
>
>







More information about the Taxacom mailing list