[Taxacom] Morphological molecular reconciliation again (was erecting or sinking higher taxa

John Grehan calabar.john at gmail.com
Sun Oct 14 14:23:25 CDT 2012


Exactly! For some things in life there appears to be no resolution.Human
origins may be one of them.

John Grehan

On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Richard Zander <Richard.Zander at mobot.org>wrote:

> Why'd I start this again? What's the matter with me?
>
> _______________________
> Richard H. Zander
> Missouri Botanical Garden
> PO Box 299
> St. Louis, MO 63166 U.S.A.
> richard.zander at mobot.org
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: John Grehan [mailto:calabar.john at gmail.com]
> Sent: Sun 10/14/2012 11:25 AM
> To: Richard Zander
> Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: Morphological molecular reconciliation again (was erecting or
> sinking higher taxa
>
>
> Richard's conclusion is only possible by saying that the morpogenetic
> evidence is wrong (i.e. throwing it out). And I did mention in my response
> an explanation for the molecular evidence being wrong in this case - that
> the molecular evidence result has been negatively affected by the presence
> of unrecognized plesiomorphies (due to the phenetic nature of character
> state determination and analysis).
>
> John Grehan
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Richard Zander <Richard.Zander at mobot.org>
> wrote:
>
>
>         Yes, that's it! Orangutans may be the progenitors of all chimps,
> gorillas, humans, bonabos and extinct human-like shamblers in the African
> forests. Is there another explanation of the molecular pattern given the
> morphological data you vouch for? The sister group of homo is an orangutan
> clade that is now extinct but makes orangutan a paraphyletic group.
>
>         Another explanation that does not just throw out conflicting
> information? What is it?
>
>         _______________________
>         Richard H. Zander
>         Missouri Botanical Garden
>         PO Box 299
>         St. Louis, MO 63166 U.S.A.
>         richard.zander at mobot.org
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>         From: John Grehan [mailto:calabar.john at gmail.com]
>         Sent: Sun 10/14/2012 10:12 AM
>         To: Richard Zander
>         Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>         Subject: Morphological molecular reconciliation again (was
> erecting or sinking higher taxa
>
>
>
>                 Suppose that there is an orangutan sister group to humans
> that is now extinct.
>
>
>         If this extinct sister group is closer to humans than orangutans,
> and therefore an extinct sister group to humans, it is not an orangutan
> sistergroup since that entity would encompass all living and extinct taxa
> comprising the human clade, and those comprising an orangutan clade.
>
>
>
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