[Taxacom] Start of online early

Richard Petit r.e.petit at att.net
Tue Sep 25 15:13:45 CDT 2012


Joe K.:

I agree entirely with your all of your comments but one. "Some electronic 
publications will [be] cherished and held up for all time as important ..." 
as they will fall far short of lasting "for all time."  Books and papers 
printed on paper in the 18th century will still be around long after some of 
the "electronic publications" cease to be accessible.

I realize that any fool can establish a journal. I have one myself.  Not 
long ago most professors and curators (at least in zoology) had in-house 
journals that were effectively privately owned but passed as peer reviewed 
due to their source. Your caveats as to quality applies to them also - some 
great, some horrible.

It was/is equally possible to "self publish" without resorting to 
electronics.  Just write a paper on your computer, put it on disc and take 
it to Office Deport or other copy service and have a few copies printed off. 
It can be either first or later converted to a .pdf and put on line or 
distributed electronically, but it would still exist in print form.  This 
is, in my opinion, a critical step lacking in the new system.

Also, with an electronic-only paper you can never have the satisfaction of 
walking down the hall waving a copy at your colleagues while yelling "Did 
you see what a mess Jones made of the XXXdae, and he knew I was working on 
them!!"  I just dreamed that scenario up as I am not a member of academia 
and I am certain that none of you would do such a thing.

dick p.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kirkbride, Joseph" <Joseph.Kirkbride at ARS.USDA.GOV>
To: "Richard Petit" <r.e.petit at att.net>; "Richard Zander" 
<Richard.Zander at mobot.org>; "Roderic Page" <r.page at bio.gla.ac.uk>; "TAXACOM" 
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 3:27 PM
Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Start of online early


Dick P.,

Having been on the Committee for Electronic Publication, I believe that we 
tried to set conditions that would distinguish intended publications from 
accidental publications. There is no way to keep someone from setting up his 
own journal and publishing away. There are many cases of this in botanical 
history. In fact this is the way that many of the 19th Century journals 
began. Of course like all human technology, some were miss used, and others 
turned out to truly valuable. I am sure that electronic publication will be 
the same. Some electronic publications will cherished and held up for all 
times as important, valuable publications, and others will be described in 
terms so scathing that much of it can be spoken in polite company.

Joe K

Joseph H. Kirkbride, Jr.
USDA-ARS, U.S. National Arboretum
Floral & Nursery Plants Research Unit
3501 New York Avenue NE
Washington, DC 20002-1958 USA
Tel.: 202-245-4534
Cell: 301-602-6958
FAX: 202-245-5973
E-mail: joseph.kirkbride at ars.usda.gov


-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Petit [mailto:r.e.petit at att.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 1:54 PM
To: Kirkbride, Joseph; Richard Zander; Roderic Page; TAXACOM
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Start of online early

Joe K.:

I fear that this is only the tip of the iceberg of problems that will arise 
from admitting "electronic publication" which is itself an impossible 
juxtaposition of words.

As there is no way to guarantee perpetual archiving of an "electronic 
publication" it is only a matter of time before a posting on Facebook will 
suffice for "publication".  Thinking about, it is probably already possible 
to obtain an ISSN, type up a paper on which that ISSN and the "journal name"
associated with it are used, and post it on Facebook.

Is there anywhere an explanation as to why an ISSN is so important to this 
new concept?

dick p.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirkbride, Joseph" <Joseph.Kirkbride at ARS.USDA.GOV>
To: "Richard Zander" <Richard.Zander at mobot.org>; "Roderic Page"
<r.page at bio.gla.ac.uk>; "TAXACOM" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Start of online early


> Richard,
>
> If someone turns up one of the these preprint PDFs 50 years from now
> without a statement in it that it is a preprint, was it validly published/
>
> Joe K
>
> Joseph H. Kirkbride, Jr.
> USDA-ARS, U.S. National Arboretum
> Floral & Nursery Plants Research Unit
> 3501 New York Avenue NE
> Washington, DC 20002-1958 USA
> Tel.: 202-245-4534
> Cell: 301-602-6958
> FAX: 202-245-5973
> E-mail: joseph.kirkbride at ars.usda.gov
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Zander [mailto:Richard.Zander at mobot.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 12:55 PM
> To: Roderic Page; TAXACOM
> Cc: Kirkbride, Joseph
> Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Start of online early
>
> Aha. I have found the original proposal in Taxon 60: 243-286. 2011. One
> sentence (assuming they appear in the final version when published as ICN,
> is:
>
> "30.6. An electronic publication is not effectively published if there is
> evidence that it is merely a preliminary version that was, or is to be,
> replaced by a version that the publisher considers final, in which case
> only that final version is effectively published."
>
> Thus, a preprint as an early-online version is NOT an effective way to
> publish a new name. Even if there is a date on the e-publication.
>
> ____________________________
> Richard H. Zander
> Missouri Botanical Garden, PO Box 299, St. Louis, MO 63166-0299 USA Web
> sites: http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/ and
> http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/bfna/bfnamenu.htm
> Modern Evolutionary Systematics Web site:
> http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/21EvSy.htm
> UPS and FedExpr -  MBG, 4344 Shaw Blvd, St. Louis 63110 USA
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Roderic Page
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 11:38 AM
> To: TAXACOM
> Cc: Kirkbride, Joseph
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Start of online early
>
> ISSNs are different for print and electronic versions. In the publishing
> world the medium matters (which is why ISBNs for hard- and paperback
> editions of books are different, for example). See
> http://issn.org/2-22638-ISSN-and-electronic-publications.php for more
> details.
>
> Having multiple ISSNs for the "same" journal is a pain, of course, so now
> we have ISSN-Ls, which aim to collect all the different ISSNs for a
> journal, see http://issn.org/2-22637-What-is-an-ISSN-L.php
>
> The http://issn.org website has more on these matters.
>
> Regards
>
> Rod
>
>
> On 25 Sep 2012, at 16:36, Kirkbride, Joseph wrote:
>
>> Can an electronic version of a print journal have the same ISSN as the
> print version of the journal, or does it have to have a separate ISSN for
> each?
>>
>> Joe K
>>
>> Joseph H. Kirkbride, Jr.
>> USDA-ARS, U.S. National Arboretum
>> Floral & Nursery Plants Research Unit
>> 3501 New York Avenue NE
>> Washington, DC 20002-1958 USA
>> Tel.: 202-245-4534
>> Cell: 301-602-6958
>> FAX: 202-245-5973
>> E-mail: joseph.kirkbride at ars.usda.gov
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Paul van
> Rijckevorsel
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 11:29 AM
>> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Start of online early
>>
>> From: "Paul Kirk" <p.kirk at cabi.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 4:59 PM
>>
>>> If it's a PDF
>>> If it has an ISSN
>>> If the publisher considers it the 'version of record'
>>>
>>> It's effectively published under the ICN[afp]
>>>
>>> Paul
>>
>> ***
>> I agree,
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
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>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Roderic Page
> Professor of Taxonomy
> Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative Medicine College
> of Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences Graham Kerr Building University
> of Glasgow Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK
>
> Email: r.page at bio.gla.ac.uk
> Tel: +44 141 330 4778
> Fax: +44 141 330 2792
> Skype: rdmpage
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/rdmpage
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/rdmpage
> Blog: http://iphylo.blogspot.com
> Home page: http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/rod.html
> Citations: http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAAAAAJ
>
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