[Taxacom] Open access?

Raymond Hoser Snakeman Snakebusters Reptile Parties viper007 at live.com.au
Thu Jun 6 06:16:24 CDT 2013


 Thanks Lyubomir, that was the jist of my original post.
Of course in the real world, things are never as easy as "abc".
All the best 

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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 12:26:32 +0300
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Open access?
From: lyubo.penev at gmail.com
To: stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
CC: viper007 at live.com.au; cruizaltaba at dgcc.caib.es; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu

How much your institutional library paid, for example, for the 1000-pages book Family-group Names in Coleoptera? How much individual scientists, being they based in USA, or Eastern Europe, or Africa, pay to use this imminent treatise, anytime, from anywhere? 
 Until today, the book has been downloaded 17,402 times. In which other model one can "sell" 17,000 hardcopies or 17,000 paid access hits for whatever price, so that to reach this level of usage?
 Can anyone calculate the TRUE value of open access, either in money or in efiiciency for the users and science in general? Cheers,Lyubomir





On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz> wrote:

You misunderstand! I don't mean the cost of publication in that sense! I mean the cost of paying a publisher to get your article into their prestigious journal and to make it open access. This involves editing, etc. , by them. They can charge what they like!










________________________________

From: Raymond Hoser Snakeman Snakebusters Reptile Parties <viper007 at live.com.au>

To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>; Cristian Ruiz Altaba <cruizaltaba at dgcc.caib.es>

Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>; Paul Kirk <p.kirk at kew.org>


Sent: Thursday, 6 June 2013 7:53 PM

Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Open access?







Stephen (and others),





I don’t who here knows what about internet, making pdf’s and the cost of hosting.





But cost can’t seriously be raised as an argument against open access.





Now of course the reason the Zoological Code insists (or did) on hard copy print publication is because of the inherent hazards of online such as data loss, alterations and the like. Taxonomy and nomenclature (the latter in particular) need stable and verifiably so material on which to base things.






However bearing in mind pretty much all papers are computer generated and pretty much everyone has access to the means to make pdf’s (including scientists in poorer countries) of the final product (as is done already) the cost of producing pdf’s is effectively zilch.While there are countless places on the web in which to host material for free, perhaps a Zoobank style database could be created with a section to host papers for those who have nowhere else to do this and incorporate a database whereby all taxonomic papers are both listed and filed.






Now this database wouldn’t be a censor to vet or decide quality of publications, merit of judgments and the like, but at least it could hold them all and in one place.





Cost? – Done well and without excess wastage, less than 100K a year would probably cover the entire planet’s zoological publications in a decent database – well within the range for a benefactor to fund – maybe zilch with some Google-style adwords thrown in!


PS In the current situation the paywall owners are not the universities - they pay them to access material anyway! 



> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 00:19:39 -0700

> From: stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz

> To: cruizaltaba at dgcc.caib.es

> CC: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu; P.Kirk at kew.org

> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Open access?

>

> My point was that open access might mean less research gets done. This is because, for the same research funding, the cost of publication will now have to be paid. Even if extra funding is got for this purpose, it will often come with institutional overheads (which could be 100% of the cost of publication), all of which depletes a finite pot of available research funding ...


>  

> Stephen

>

>

> ________________________________

> From: Cristian Ruiz Altaba <cruizaltaba at dgcc.caib.es>

> To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>

> Cc: Roderic Page <r.page at bio.gla.ac.uk>; Paul Kirk <P.Kirk at kew.org>; "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>


> Sent: Thursday, 6 June 2013 7:12 PM

> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Open access?

>

>

>

> So open access might mean flooding the Internet with contributions from wealthy countries, effectively transforming government money into linguistic, social and political predominance. With tangible benefits for those responsible for such transformation. Smart.


>

> Unless, of course, the producers of contents (i.e., taxonomists) are aware of the dangers, and find ways to preserve the spirit of the Code --universality, freedom of speech, collaboration...

>

> Still puzzled,

>

> Cristian

>  

>

> -----taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu escribió: -----

>

>

> Para: Roderic Page <r.page at bio.gla.ac.uk>, Paul Kirk <P.Kirk at kew.org>

> >De: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>

> >Enviado por: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu

> >Fecha: 05/06/2013 23:01

> >cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>

> >Asunto: Re: [Taxacom] Open access?

> >

> >Of course, the economics of open access are more complicated. On a standard business model, a research institution takes a big cut ("overheads") of any external funding that comes their way for research. If the publications resulting from that research are open access, then the cost of publication has to be met from that funding, which effectively means that more funding is required to cover those costs *plus the associated overheads*, so the institution ends up with more $$$ for the same amount of work. Of course, this might be offset to some extent by less library subscriptions to non open access journals, but it depends how that is funded in the particular case, and I bet it makes little or no difference. If the funding is public funding, then the public is paying for open access, which they might be happy to do, but I'm not sure that they have been given a choice! Authors, their institutions, and publishers all benefit from open access ...


> >

> >Stephen

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >________________________________

> > From: Roderic Page <r.page at bio.gla.ac.uk>

> >To: Paul Kirk <P.Kirk at kew.org>

> >Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>

> >Sent: Thursday, 6 June 2013 12:45 AM

> >Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Open access?

> > 

> >

> >Paul,

> >

> >If you pay to publish under a (proper) open access license, then you place no controls over the fate of the publication, people can do anything they want with it (typically you place a caveat that they credit you if they make use of it). Open Access facilitates this because the commercial value of the business in the first instance is getting people to publish. There's no money in distribution.


> >

> >If you charge for access to the publication once published, then you are very keen to control distribution by any means you can. Once you loose that control you make no more money.

> >

> >So, yes, there's a pretty clear connection. It's no accident that journals like the PLoS, BMC, and ZooKeys make all the content freely available for people to explore, and other publishers don't.


> >

> >Regards

> >

> >Rod

> >

> >On 5 Jun 2013, at 13:32, Paul Kirk wrote:

> >

> >> post publication data mining is quite separate from pre publication choice of publishing model ... or am I missing some critical link?

> >>

> >> still bemused at Kew :-)

> >>

> >> Paul

> >>

> >> -----Original Message-----

> >> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Quentin Groom


> >> Sent: 05 June 2013 13:27

> >> To: Roderic Page

> >> Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu

> >> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Open access?

> >>

> >> Yes, but this is why data miners are trying to get an exception for their use. While the rest of us need to find a sustainable way to fund publishing.

> >> I have frequently published as an amateur botanist, rather than in my academic role. However, up until this year I could not afford to publish in Open Access journals, even though I much prefer this.

> >> Quentin

> >>

> >> Roderic Page wrote:

> >>> Open Access is not simply about not having to pay to read. It's about

> >>> "free" in the sense of being able to repurpose the text, for example,

> >>> mining the text.

> >>>

> >>> It's one thing to say "OK, I can rent access to a paper for a short

> >>> period and read it" (an option for some papers in BioNames, e.g.

> >>> http://bionames.org/references/e5249df9741347eccfba182c64936ab2

> >>> ), it's quite another to be able to download that text and extract its

> >>> content. I would argue mining is ultimately far more valuable, and is

> >>> one of the more compelling arguments for Open Access. It's also

> >>> something that publishers are reluctant to allow, see piece in Nature

> >>> yesterday "Tensions grow as data-mining discussions fall apart"

> >>> http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/498014a.

> >>>

> >>> There's a lot more at stake here than an individual's ability to read

> >>> a paper.

> >>>

> >>> Regards

> >>>

> >>> Rod

> >>>

> >>> On 5 Jun 2013, at 12:39, Quentin Groom wrote:

> >>>

> >>>> As a consumer of scientific papers I've never had a problem with the

> >>>> principal of paying to read. I do this all the time with books.

> >>>> However, I resent having to pay as much as $40 for 24 hours viewing

> >>>> of a paper published 80 years ago. With publishers such as PeerJ

> >>>> pushing the boundaries of what publishing costs. The other publishers

> >>>> need to step-up and cut their costs. The costs of scanning are so low

> >>>> that they could still make profit on their back catalogues if they

> >>>> cut the cost to cents. People cheat the system now because they feel that it is unfair.

> >>>> However, someone does need to pay!

> >>>> I would also like to see the paid download statistics published.

> >>>> Wouldn't the impact of a publication be much butter judged by the

> >>>> willingness of people to pay for it, rather than if it gets cited.

> >>>> Quentin

> >>>>

> >>>> Donat Agosti wrote:

> >>>>> Right, but this is also not a business model, or one whereby nobody

> >>>>> pays.

> >>>>> Donat

> >>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>> -----Original Message-----

> >>>>> From: Philipp Wagner [mailto:philipp.wagner.zfmk at uni-bonn.de]

> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 2:49 PM

> >>>>> To: Donat Agosti

> >>>>> Cc: 'Wuster,Wolfgang'; 'John Noyes'; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu

> >>>>> <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>

> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Open access?

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Well, also people from poorer countries have an email account and

> >>>>> can easily request tha artcile directly from the authors.

> >>>>> That would be the cheapest way for both sides.

> >>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Donat Agosti schrieb:

> >>>>>

> >>>>>> ". I would be concerned that making open access mandatory would

> >>>>>> discriminate against taxonomists from poorer countries"

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Essentially this means: Better keep the old system, where the

> >>>>>> people from poorer countries have very restricted access to the

> >>>>>> published record, because their libraries cannot afford it, and

> >>>>>> because there is not even in the richer countries a library that

> >>>>>> has it all. Do you really mean and support this?

> >>>>>> Essentially, that means to keep the colleagues in the poorer

> >>>>>> country longer in the dark as necessary.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Donat

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----

> >>>>>> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu

> >>>>>> <mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>

> >>>>>> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of

> >>>>>> Wuster,Wolfgang

> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 2:25 PM

> >>>>>> To: John Noyes; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu

> >>>>>> <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>

> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Open access?

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Having all taxonomic publication available as open access

> >>>>>> publications would be nice, but at least at the moment, someone,

> >>>>>> somewhere still ends up paying, at least if they wish to publish

> >>>>>> through independent academic journals. In the traditional system

> >>>>>> readers pay, under the open access model the author pays. I would

> >>>>>> be concerned that making open access mandatory would discriminate

> >>>>>> against taxonomists from poorer countries as well as many private

> >>>>>> individuals (and indeed retired academics) who pay for their

> >>>>>> taxonomic research out of their own pockets. No doubt this may

> >>>>>> change in the next few years with the advent of new publishing

> >>>>>> models, but I don't think we are quite there yet.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> However, encouraging open access for those who can afford it would

> >>>>>> certainly make a nice Recommendation  8i in the Code.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Wolfgang

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> John Noyes wrote:

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>>> Hi,

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> I certainly think it would be good to specify that an electronic

> >>>>>>> publication would meet the requirements of the ICZN as a published

> >>>>>>> article ONLY if it was open access. It is a pity that this was not

> >>>>>>> done when Article 8.5 was introduced - it is almost certainly too

> >>>>>>> late now. As I see it, it was a fantastic opportunity was missed

> >>>>>>> that would have made taxonomy hugely more accessible at a stroke.

> >>>>>>> It would also have made it cheaper because the cost of publishing

> >>>>>>> taxonomy (especially large-scale revisionary works of the sort

> >>>>>>> that are badly needed) could have been reduced to virtually nill.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>> --

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> >>>>>> School of Biological Sciences   

> >>>>>> Bangor University

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> >>>>>>

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> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Celebrating 26 years of Taxacom in 2013.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>>

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> >>>>> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched with either of

> >>>>> these methods:

> >>>>>

> >>>>> (1) by visiting http://taxacom.markmail.org/

> >>>>>

> >>>>> (2) a Google search specified as:

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> >>>>>

> >>>>> Celebrating 26 years of Taxacom in 2013.

> >>>>>

> >>>> _______________________________________________

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> >>>> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched with either of these

> >>>> methods:

> >>>>

> >>>> (1) by visiting http://taxacom.markmail.org/

> >>>>

> >>>> (2) a Google search specified as:

> >>>> site:mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom  your search terms here

> >>>>

> >>>> Celebrating 26 years of Taxacom in 2013.

> >>>

> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------

> >>> Roderic Page

> >>> Professor of Taxonomy

> >>> Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative Medicine

> >>> College of Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences Graham Kerr Building

> >>> University of Glasgow Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK

> >>>

> >>> Email: r.page at bio.gla.ac.uk <mailto:r.page at bio.gla.ac.uk>

> >>> Tel: +44 141 330 4778

> >>> Fax: +44 141 330 2792

> >>> Skype: rdmpage

> >>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/rdmpage

> >>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/rdmpage

> >>> Blog: http://iphylo.blogspot.com/

> >>> Home page: http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/rod.html

> >>> Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roderic_D._M._Page

> >>> Citations:

> >>> http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAAAAAJ

> >>> <http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAAAAAJ>

> >>> ORCID id: http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7101-9767

> >>>

> >> _______________________________________________

> >> Taxacom Mailing List

> >> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu

> >> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom

> >>

> >> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched with either of these methods:

> >>

> >> (1) by visiting http://taxacom.markmail.org/

> >>

> >> (2) a Google search specified as:  site:mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom  your search terms here

> >>

> >> Celebrating 26 years of Taxacom in 2013.

> >>

> >

> >---------------------------------------------------------

> >Roderic Page

> >Professor of Taxonomy

> >Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative Medicine

> >College of Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences

> >Graham Kerr Building

> >University of Glasgow

> >Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK

> >

> >Email: r.page at bio.gla.ac.uk

> >Tel: +44 141 330 4778

> >Fax: +44 141 330 2792

> >Skype: rdmpage

> >Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/rdmpage

> >Twitter: http://twitter.com/rdmpage

> >Blog: http://iphylo.blogspot.com/

> >Home page: http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/rod.html

> >Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roderic_D._M._Page

> >Citations: http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAAAAAJ

> >ORCID id: http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7101-9767

> >

> >_______________________________________________

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> >

> >The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched with either of these methods:

> >

> >(1) by visiting http://taxacom.markmail.org/

> >

> >(2) a Google search specified as:  site:mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom  your search terms here

> >

> >Celebrating 26 years of Taxacom in 2013.

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> >

> >The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched with either of these methods:

> >

> >(1) by visiting http://taxacom.markmail.org/

> >

> >(2) a Google search specified as:  site:mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom  your search terms here

> >

> >Celebrating 26 years of Taxacom in 2013.

> >

> _______________________________________________

> Taxacom Mailing List

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> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom

>

> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched with either of these methods:

>

> (1) by visiting http://taxacom.markmail.org

>

> (2) a Google search specified as: site:mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom your search terms here

>

> Celebrating 26 years of Taxacom in 2013.





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