[Taxacom] are early online publications code-compliant?

John Noyes j.noyes at nhm.ac.uk
Tue Apr 14 03:24:48 CDT 2015


Hi Rich,

Fair enough, but how would you solve this to everyone's satisfaction? At the moment all we have is "publication" as a control of availability. Compulsory registration on ZooBank may be a way but that more than likely would not be universally accepted because of its perceived tenuous nature and other foreseen problems. Printed publications or electronic publications (as PDFs or similar, certainly not HTML etc.) by their nature have many copies and should always be available. Or do you have something else in mind . . . . ?

John

John Noyes
Scientific Associate
Department of Life Sciences
Natural History Museum
Cromwell Road
South Kensington
London SW7 5BD 
UK
jsn at nhm.ac.uk
Tel.: +44 (0) 207 942 5594
Fax.: +44 (0) 207 942 5229

Universal Chalcidoidea Database (everything you wanted to know about chalcidoids and more):
www.nhm.ac.uk/chalcidoids 


-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Pyle [mailto:pylediver at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pyle
Sent: 13 April 2015 21:32
To: 'Frank T. Krell'; 'Sue Gardner'; John Noyes; 'Stephen Thorpe'
Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu; gread at actrix.gen.nz
Subject: RE: [Taxacom] are early online publications code-compliant?

I've generally been staying out of this discussion -- in part because this horse has already been repeatedly beaten to a pulp; and in part because I've just been too busy with other things.  However, I happened to re-read something just now that PERFECTLY captures my own perspective of how to solve all of this:

"...it seems likely, in the longer term, and with the development of new information systems, that the solution will not lie in patching up a definition of publication but, rather, in scrapping it and finding a means of replacing "publication" as a primary determinant of availability."

Brilliant!  EXACTLY right, in my opinion!

By the way, here's the source of the quote:
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/hosted-sites/iczn/code/index.jsp?booksection=introduction
[Second paragraph under the heading "Development of underlying principles"]

Aloha,
Rich


Richard L. Pyle, PhD
Database Coordinator for Natural Sciences | Associate Zoologist in Ichthyology | Dive Safety Officer Department of Natural Sciences, Bishop Museum, 1525 Bernice St., Honolulu, HI 96817
Ph: (808)848-4115, Fax: (808)847-8252 email: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/staff/pylerichard.html




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank T. Krell [mailto:Frank.Krell at dmns.org]
> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 5:55 AM
> To: Sue Gardner; John Noyes; 'Stephen Thorpe'; 'deepreef at bishopmuseum.org'
> Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu; gread at actrix.gen.nz
> Subject: RE: [Taxacom] are early online publications code-compliant?
> 
> Taxonomists vote already with their feet by choosing where to submit.
> Many of them are happy with early online publication and don't care 
> about changing page numbering, some are not. I am afraid there won't 
> be a unified voice.
> I have no problems with changing metadata although it is a nuisance - 
> BUT with increasing single article publishing, I am pretty sure that 
> the problem will largely go away.
> 
> Frank
> 
> 
> Dr. Frank-T. Krell, Chair, ZooBank Committee http://zoobank.org 
> Commissioner, International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature 
> Curator of Entomology Department of Zoology Denver Museum of Nature & 
> Science
> 2001 Colorado Boulevard
> Denver, CO 80205-5798 USA
> Frank.Krell at dmns.org
> Phone: (+1) (303) 370-8244
> Fax: (+1) (303) 331-6492
> http://www.dmns.org/science/museum-scientists/frank-krell
> lab page: http://www.dmns.org/krell-lab
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of 
> Sue Gardner
> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 8:20 AM
> To: John Noyes; 'Stephen Thorpe'; 'deepreef at bishopmuseum.org'
> Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu; gread at actrix.gen.nz
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] are early online publications code-compliant?
> 
> John posed an important question: "Shouldn't the taxonomists be 
> telling the publishers how to do this and not the other way around?"
> 
> As an observer off to the side, I have to chime in and say: 
> -absolutely yes-. The publishers should cater to your needs. As 
> taxonomists, you should not have to adapt to their choices. Be clear, 
> objective, and preferably unified in your voice on this and, if one 
> publisher doesn't serve your needs, move along to a publisher that does.
> 
> Sue Ann Gardner, MLS
> Scholarly Communications Librarian
> Discovery and Resource Management
> 302S Love Library
> University of Nebraska-Lincoln
> Lincoln, Nebraska 68588-4100 USA
> sgardner2 at unl.edu
> 402-472-8566
> 
> ________________________________________
> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> on behalf of John 
> Noyes <j.noyes at nhm.ac.uk>
> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 3:54 AM
> To: 'Stephen Thorpe'; 'deepreef at bishopmuseum.org'
> Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu; gread at actrix.gen.nz
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] are early online publications code-compliant?
> 
> Hi Stephen,
> 
> I am not being inflexible on this. I am trying to be objective (which 
> really should be viewed as being more constructive rather than less). 
> It is not a matter of recognising the availability of new names. It is 
> a matter of the date upon which these names and nomenclatural acts 
> become available - from the prepub date or from the publication date 
> of the compiled version. It is also a matter of which pagination and 
> volume number to use (on occasion there is only a DOI) when citing the 
> article or its contents. Shouldn't the taxonomists be telling the 
> publishers how to do this and not the other way around? I have no 
> argument with publishers who publish with fixed metadata - it is more 
> with those that publish with variable metadata. After all if more than 
> one publisher (there are at least three that I know of) can publish 
> with fixed metadata then they could all could do it very easily. 
> Personally I do not really see there is any wiggle room in the Code on 
> this if you try to be completely objective about it. It says what it 
> says irrespective of whether there is any mention of specific types of 
> prepubications or metadata. If there is any disagreement in the interpretation of what is stated in the Code then it needs to be changed so that there is only one way of interpreting it.
> 
> John
> 
> John Noyes
> Scientific Associate
> Department of Life Sciences
> Natural History Museum
> Cromwell Road
> South Kensington
> London SW7 5BD
> UK
> jsn at nhm.ac.uk
> Tel.: +44 (0) 207 942 5594
> Fax.: +44 (0) 207 942 5229
> 
> Universal Chalcidoidea Database (everything you wanted to know about 
> chalcidoids and more):
> www.nhm.ac.uk/chalcidoids
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Thorpe [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
> Sent: 09 April 2015 21:54
> To: 'deepreef at bishopmuseum.org'; John Noyes
> Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu; gread at actrix.gen.nz
> Subject: RE: [Taxacom] are early online publications code-compliant?
> 
> Hi John,
> 
> I have some sympathy with your views, but I don't see it as 
> constructive to be inflexible on this. The reality is that 
> e-publication in zoology was largely influenced by one person, who's 
> publishing company does not prepublish without already fixed metadata. 
> This is largely because that person has complete control over all 
> stages of publication. Many other publishers are not like this. The 
> electronic amendment really hasn't taken them into account properly. 
> But given that there is wiggle room in the Code to allow prepubs 
> without metadata (it is not explicit, but neither is it explicitly ruled out), I think we should run with it rather than fail to recognise a great many new names.
> New names can fail to be strictly speaking available for all sorts of 
> subtle reasons, but there is really no harm in continuing to use those 
> names for taxa that would otherwise be without any name.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Stephen
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> On Thu, 9/4/15, John Noyes <j.noyes at nhm.ac.uk> wrote:
> 
>  Subject: RE: [Taxacom] are early online publications code-compliant?
>  To: "'Stephen Thorpe'" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, 
> "'deepreef at bishopmuseum.org'" <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>
>  Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>, 
> "gread at actrix.gen.nz" <gread at actrix.gen.nz>
>  Received: Thursday, 9 April, 2015, 9:15 PM
> 
>  Hi Stephen,
> 
>  As you know, I disagree with
>  you and a few others with regards to the so-called metadata.
>  I believe that the page numbers and volume numbers are part  of the 
> article because, as you say, they act as a signpost  to specific parts of the article.
> Where does  "metadata" start and end? For instance, if for  some 
> reason, the figure numbers were changed but the actual  content of the 
> article were not changed then do figure  numbers constitute metadata 
> as they only point to specific  parts of the article. The same could 
> be said of other  information. So far as I know there is no definition 
> of  metadata in the Code and as it stands prepublications are in  
> conflict with the code if any part of the article is changed  and that 
> includes pages numbers, volume numbers etc. Until  such a time that 
> metadata is defined in the code and the  code says that changes in 
> metadata are allowed and do not  make the prepublication unavailable 
> then I, and others,  shall continue to regards prepubs as unavailable. 
> I hope  there is a change in the Code that defines this one way or  
> the other, but at the same time I hope this change is not  retrospective as the fourth edition was because this causes  all sorts of unseen, unwanted problems.
> 
>  John
> 
>  John
>  Noyes
>  Scientific Associate
>  Department of Life Sciences
>  Natural History Museum
>  Cromwell
>  Road
>  South Kensington
>  London
>  SW7 5BD
>  UK
>  jsn at nhm.ac.uk
>  Tel.: +44 (0) 207 942 5594
>  Fax.: +44 (0) 207 942 5229
> 
>  Universal Chalcidoidea Database (everything you  wanted to know about 
> chalcidoids and more):
>  www.nhm.ac.uk/chalcidoids
> 
> 
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: Stephen Thorpe [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
> 
>  Sent: 08 April 2015 21:47
>  To: 'deepreef at bishopmuseum.org';
>  John Noyes
>  Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
>  gread at actrix.gen.nz
>  Subject: RE: [Taxacom] are early online  publications code-compliant?
> 
>  John,
> 
>  The
>  prepub and the "compiled" article are *the same
>  version* (or should be). The metadata isn't part of the  article, so 
> if two articles differ only in metadata, they  are the same version. 
> Versions differ only if the content  differs. The metadata is useful 
> for signposting (e.g. the  start page of a description in a long 
> article), so it makes  sense to use the compiled page numbers when 
> these are  assigned (and before then, or alternatively, one can use,  
> e.g. [6] for the sixth page of the article). There may be a  problem 
> for e-only publications without pagination, but  these are still rare. 
> I do not understand you when you say  [quote] However when the 
> compiled version is published the  prepublication is no longer 
> available (or am I wrong here)  only the compiled version, with the 
> different pagination and  volume number, is available [unquote]. Do you mean  "available" in the nomenclatural sense, or in the  everyday sense?
> 
>  Cheers,
> 
>  Stephen
> 
>  --------------------------------------------
>  On Wed, 8/4/15, John Noyes <j.noyes at nhm.ac.uk>
>  wrote:
> 
>   Subject: RE:
>  [Taxacom] are early online publications code-compliant?
>   To: "'deepreef at bishopmuseum.org'"
>  <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>,
>  "'Stephen Thorpe'" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
>   Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
>  <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
>  "gread at actrix.gen.nz"
>  <gread at actrix.gen.nz>
>   Received: Wednesday, 8 April, 2015, 11:11  PM
> 
>   Dear Rich and
>  others,
> 
>   I still have this
>  problem
>   about prepubs (EarlyView, etc.). I
>  know that many of you  think that "metadata" is  not important, but 
> when maintaining a taxonomic catalogue  it is difficult to know  
> whether one should enter the  pagination of the  prepublication or that of the compiled  publication.
> The  correct pagination is important,  especially where many taxa  are 
> dealt with in the same  publication. There is also the  problem of 
> volume number which is often omitted from the  prepublication. If the  
> version of record, in the case of  prepublications, is the  version 
> where the name is first made  available then this  is the one that has 
> the correct  pagination. However when  the compiled version is 
> published  the prepublication is no  longer available (or am I wrong
>   here) only
>  the compiled version, with the different  pagination and  volume 
> number, is available. I know it seems  to be a minor  thing but it 
> becomes important (to me at
> 
>  least) when cataloguing or maintaining a database, whether  it be 
> on-line or otherwise. I am glad that Frank is trying  to clear up the 
> problem, but in my view, we are being  pushed  into this by the publishers and it is unnecessary.
>  I do not  think that prepublications are necessary in  taxonomy. At 
> the  moment we have two differing views, one  driven by the  
> publishers (that prepublications are OK),  and one that is  held by 
> the majority of taxonomists that I  have discussed  this with (that 
> prepubs are not OK). If  publishers could include the correct pagination and volume  number with the
>   (uncompiled) prepublication
>  (i.e. an exact copy of the  compiled version then I would  have no 
> problem in accepting  the publication as available,  but as it stands 
> I find this  difficult because it is  apparently in conflict with the code  as it stands.
> 
>   John
> 
>   John Noyes
>   Scientific
>  Associate
>   Department
>   of
>  Life Sciences
>   Natural History Museum
>   Cromwell Road
>   South
>   Kensington
>   London SW7 5BD
>   UK
>   jsn at nhm.ac.uk
>   Tel.: +44 (0) 207 942 5594
> 
>  Fax.: +44 (0) 207 942 5229
> 
>   Universal Chalcidoidea Database (everything  you  wanted to know 
> about chalcidoids and more):
>   www.nhm.ac.uk/chalcidoids
> 
> 
> 
>   -----Original
>  Message-----
>   From: Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu]
>   On Behalf Of Richard Pyle
> 
>  Sent: 07 April
>   2015 07:39
> 
>  To: 'Stephen Thorpe'
>   Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
>   gread at actrix.gen.nz
>   Subject: Re: [Taxacom] are early online  publications code-compliant?
> 
>   > Even that is somewhat unclear. If the  PDF  is reupped with 
> (previously  >
> missing)  evidence  of ZooBank preregistration (where "pre-"
>   means
>   > "before the
>  date
>   reupped"), then it might be
>  available before the  > print edition, but there are a  lot of  complexities ...
> 
> 
>  The
>   general consensus -- at least among
>  Commissioners I have  discussed this with -- is that a work  becomes 
> available the  moment it fulfills all requirements  of the Code.  This 
> has  always been true for printed  works; and there is no reason  to 
> think it should be any  different for electronic works.
>   Using your
>  hypothetical example above, the moment the  "reupped" PDF (with 
> included evidence for  ZooBank
>   registration) is obtainable (and
>  assuming all other criteria  are fulfilled), is the moment  the work 
> becomes available.  The same would apply to cases  when the ZooBank 
> record is subsequently updated to include  required elements, such as  
> the ISSN or indication of an  online Archive.
> 
>   Not
>  really all that complex,
>   actually.
> 
>   Of course, all of
>   these problems will vanish when if/when we  adopt the  
> Registered=Available model of registration  (leaving  "Publication" to 
> the realm of science;  not part of  the realm of nomenclatural availability).
> 
>   Aloha,
> 
>  Rich
> 
> 
> 
>  Richard L.
>   Pyle, PhD
> 
>  Database Coordinator for Natural
>   Sciences |
>  Associate Zoologist in Ichthyology | Dive Safety  Officer  Department 
> of Natural Sciences, Bishop Museum, 1525  Bernice St., Honolulu, HI 96817
>   Ph:
>   (808)848-4115, Fax: (808)847-8252 email: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org 
> http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/staff/pylerichard.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> Celebrating 28 years of Taxacom in 2015.
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