[Taxacom] Forgotting at the edge of miracles

Peter Hovenkamp phovenkamp at casema.nl
Mon Apr 27 05:56:37 CDT 2015


That's interesting. You appear interested in refutations of tracks, 
nodes and baselines.
Could you please take your favourite standard track, node or baseline (I 
have no preference) and just lean back and think what evidence you would 
accept as refuting evidence. Then let us know.

Best,

Peter Hovenkamp


John Grehan schreef op 26-Apr-15 om 6:45 PM:
> I’m not so sure that the situation in biogeography is so complex in
> general. There are standard tracks, nodes and baselines. They have been
> extensively documented and none refuted. There are spatial correlations
> with geomorphology. These have been widely documented and none refuted.
> Some have objected to there being an informative relationship, but usually
> because of the misapplication of molecular clocks.
>
> I would be interested to know the empirical basis for the predication that
> 40- 60 vegetable species have successfully colonized Cuba every million
> years. What is the basis for dating Quercus oleoides var sagraeana at less
> than a million years?
>
>
>
> Cuba definitely has an interesting biogeography with key connections across
> the Pacific (not surprising given geologist’s predictions for a Pacific
> origin for some of the Cuban geology) and it is within one of the major
> biogeographic nodes of the world).
>
>
>
>
>
> John Grehan
>
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Dr. Antonio Lopez <cycas at mnhnc.inf.cu>
> wrote:
>
>> Biogeography is a synthesis science, in this science anything can be seen
>> from the point of view of the biology or from the geography only. But in
>> these cases we would have the history of the four blind ministers and the
>> elephant. That makes everything much more complex, but we should assume it
>> with that same complexity. For me, vicarianz and dispersal are two faces of
>> the same coin, not different coins. The dispersal at big distances, without
>> doubts is an exception. In accordance with my calculations to Cuba arrived
>> between 40 and 60 vegetable successful species every million years, which
>> is nothing. The oldest lineage that we have identified (as much for
>> calculation as for DNA), Pinus tropicalis, is probably in the area before
>> the rupture of Pangea and the most recent Quercus oleoides var sagraeana, a
>> hybrid, has less than a million years. Both share the almost exact same
>> distribution.
>>
>> In the 60-70 millions of years of biggest Antilles, the events of massive
>> extinction are recurrent and with them vicariant processes constants have
>> taken place. Then came processes of adaptive radiation. All that which has
>> generated species with mechanisms of adaptation to avoid the extinction of
>> the linages. We have more than 2.5 thousand of endemic species (50% of our
>> flora)
>>
>> As a famous taxonomist, unfortunately already dead, wrote: a true
>> taxonomic nightmares. I can say the same thing as biogeographist.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr. Antonio López Almirall
>>
>> Conservador del Herbario
>>
>> Museo Nacional de Historia Natural
>>
>> Obispo 61, Plaza de Armas
>>
>> Habana Vieja 10100, La Habana
>>
>> CUBA
>>
>> Email cycas at mnhnc.inf.cu
>>
>>
>>
>> *De:* John Grehan [mailto:calabar.john at gmail.com]
>> *Enviado el:* sábado, 25 de abril de 2015 09:56 p. m.
>> *Para:* Anthony Gill
>> *CC:* Stephen Thorpe; Karl Magnacca; Richard Pyle; TAXACOM; Dr. Antonio
>> Lopez
>> *Asunto:* Re: [Taxacom] Forgotting at the edge of miracles
>>
>>
>>
>> We already have plenty of monkeys - us.
>>
>>
>>
>> John Grehan
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 9:43 PM, Anthony Gill <gill.anthony at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Well, I've just set up a bunch of monkeys on laptops. I'm not expecting
>> Shakespeare's sonnets, but given enough time I'm hoping they'll knock out a
>> decent taxonomic monograph or two.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 8:34 AM, John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> If Stephen's view of biogeography is that it is just a series of beliefs
>> or assertions then there is certainly not much more to be said about that.
>> Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and there is no where further to go
>> with that. But if one views biogeography as a science in the sense of
>> applying methods of analysis (of geography and phylogeny) then one goes
>> beyond just stating a personal belief to presenting a reasoned judgement or
>> argument about the efficacy of particular methods and their results - as
>> with any other science.
>>
>>
>>
>> John Grehan
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 6:15 PM, Stephen Thorpe <
>> stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>> Biogeography is just a pompous "academic" (in the worst sense) waste of
>> time! Putting aside, for present purposes, the vast issue of marine
>> biogeography, chance transoceanic dispersal of terrestrials is *unlikely*,
>> yes, but all that means is that it isn't going to happen lots of times in a
>> short stretch of time. Given many millions of years, it can still happen
>> often enough to be a significant factor. There seems to be a slide from
>> "unlikely to happen" to "can't happen"! Any academic discipline which is
>> based ultimately on chance events is not going to be very useful!
>> Biogeography ... we don't need to know! The existence of sister taxa on
>> adjacent islands (or other landmasses) can be explained equally well by
>> dispersal (since dispersal is most likely to happen between adjacent
>> landmasses) or by vicariance (since vicariance is most likely to happen
>> between adjacent landmasses)!
>>
>> Stephen
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>> On Sun, 26/4/15, Richard Pyle <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org> wrote:
>>
>>   Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Forgotting at the edge of miracles
>>   To: "'Anthony Gill'" <gill.anthony at gmail.com>, "'Karl Magnacca'" <
>> kmagnacca at wesleyan.edu>
>>   Cc: "'TAXACOM'" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>, "'Dr. Antonio Lopez'" <
>> cycas at mnhnc.inf.cu>
>>   Received: Sunday, 26 April, 2015, 12:35 AM
>>
>>
>>   The same argument could
>>   be applied to ANY model of biogeography (dispersal,
>>   vicariance, panbiogeography, etc., etc.)  That is, any
>>   presumption that any single model accounts for every pattern
>>   (or even most patterns) is, in my opinion, naïve.  This is
>>   not to say that, in the end, one model does not dominate.
>>   But we are SO, SO, SO far away from understanding both
>>   evolutionary history and the actual distribution patterns of
>>   most living things, that only people who don't really
>>   understand the nature of biodiversity make claims that we
>>   are close to fully understanding it.
>>
>>   Aloha,
>>   Rich
>>
>>
>>   > -----Original
>>   Message-----
>>   > From: Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu]
>>   On Behalf Of
>>   > Anthony Gill
>>   > Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2015 1:12 AM
>>   > To: Karl Magnacca
>>   > Cc:
>>   TAXACOM; Dr. Antonio Lopez
>>   > Subject: Re:
>>   [Taxacom] Forgotting at the edge of miracles
>>   >
>>   > Of course, there are
>>   other from beyond panbiogeography that are concerned
>>   > that dispersal explanations should not be
>>   given a first-order explanation for
>>   >
>>   everything in biogeography. There is pattern to be
>>   discovered and explored. A
>>   > presumption
>>   of dispersal as an explanation for everything makes for
>>   > uninteresting, and ultimately irrelevant,
>>   research. I want no part of that.
>>   >
>>   > Tony
>>   >
>>   > On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Karl
>>   Magnacca
>>   > <kmagnacca at wesleyan.edu>
>>   > wrote:
>>   >
>>   > > On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 13:24:32
>>   "Dr. Antonio Lopez"
>>   > >
>>   <cycas at mnhnc.inf.cu>
>>   wrote:
>>   > > > Colleague:
>>   > > >
>>   > > >
>>   Thank you for the article of Head. Only when I read
>>   everything I am
>>   > > > able to
>>   understand and to reason. I never understood that
>>   supposed
>>   > > > difference between
>>   dispersalism and vicariancism as different
>>   > > > schools.
>>   >
>>   >
>>   > > That's because
>>   they're not.  It's only in the mind of
>>   panbiogeograpy
>>   > > supporters like
>>   Grehan and Heads, who promote the idea that because
>>   > > rare trans-oceanic dispersal is
>>   unlikely, that therefore it never
>>   > >
>>   happens (while simultaneously claiming that they say no such
>>   thing,
>>   > > invoking the undefined term
>>   "regular dispersal") that such a dichotomy
>>   > > exists.
>>   > >
>>   > > Karl
>>   > >
>>   > >
>>   _______________________________________________
>>   > > Taxacom Mailing List
>>   > > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>>   > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
>>   > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may
>>   be searched at:
>>   > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
>>   > >
>>   > > Celebrating
>>   28 years of Taxacom in 2015.
>>   > >
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >
>>   > --
>>   > Dr Anthony C. Gill
>>   >
>>   Natural History Curator
>>   > A12 Macleay
>>   Museum
>>   > University of Sydney
>>   > NSW 2006
>>   >
>>   Australia.
>>   >
>>   > Ph.
>>   +61 02 9036 6499
>>   >
>>   _______________________________________________
>>   > Taxacom Mailing List
>>   >
>>   Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>>   > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
>>   > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
>>   searched at:
>>   > http://taxacom.markmail.org
>>   >
>>   > Celebrating 28 years
>>   of Taxacom in 2015.
>>
>>   _______________________________________________
>>   Taxacom Mailing List
>>   Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>>   http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
>>   The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
>>   searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
>>
>>   Celebrating 28 years of
>>   Taxacom in 2015.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Taxacom Mailing List
>> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
>> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
>> http://taxacom.markmail.org
>>
>> Celebrating 28 years of Taxacom in 2015.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Dr Anthony C. Gill
>>
>> Natural History Curator
>>
>> A12 Macleay Museum
>>
>> University of Sydney
>>
>> NSW 2006
>>
>> Australia.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ph. +61 02 9036 6499
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>     <http://www.avast.com/>
>>
>> El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en
>> busca de virus.
>> www.avast.com
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
>
> Celebrating 28 years of Taxacom in 2015.




More information about the Taxacom mailing list