[Taxacom] Help with finding a paper

Michael A. Ivie mivie at montana.edu
Wed Oct 7 20:24:34 CDT 2015



On 10/7/2015 6:10 PM, Stephen Thorpe wrote:
> Mike,
>
> So have you been a senior manager in an institution which uses public funding for taxonomic research?
Yes, I have, as well as serving as a National Science Foundation Program 
Officer giving away $13 million a year, dealing with oversight, IDC 
rates and approval of expenditures.   Everyone is under pressure to 
think up projects that will bring in and spend research money, but the 
competition usually means that they cannot be total bullshit, although 
some occasionally are.  Strangely, many great advances are made by 
people on projects accused of such bs by the jealous or envious.  But, 
your example would require that this is commonplace enough to drive an 
industry.  Not a chance.  And, your example suggests an institution gets 
a 100% ICD that becomes unrestricted for unsupervised expenditures, and 
I have never seen such a thing, nor heard credible first-hand examples.  
Buying a research paper is a valid use of funds, so your example of it 
being done to waste money is ludicrous.  Find a librarian that would 
agree to such an example.  Every library on earth has to prioritize 
expenditures, and has a backlog of things that are validly needed. Such 
an example simply would not allow such a person to survive in an 
institution.

Mike


> I haven't, but, by your argument, if you haven't either, then you don't know what you are talking about either, so my speculation could be true as far as you know. I am talking about a situation where the institution has the opportunity to grab more public funding than it can cope with if it had to use all of the non-overheads for actual research, due to having too few scientists, and occupying most of their time with other more profitable commercial work. So, either, they turn down the extra public funding because they don't have the manpower/time to spend it on research, or they take it anyway, grab the overheads, and spend the rest on things which don't require any science to be done, but which can still be spun as part of the scientific research (e.g. subscriptions, databasing, travel, etc.) Someone I know who does work as a scientist in such an
>   institution has more than once described to me how he and his colleagues are under pressure from their employer to think up [quote]any bullshit project[unquote] to spend research funding on. How widespread a problem this is in the world I do not know.
>
> Stephen
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Thu, 8/10/15, Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu> wrote:
>
>   Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Help with finding a paper
>   To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>   Received: Thursday, 8 October, 2015, 12:06 PM
>   
>   Wow, glad you understand
>   that this is speculation, because this is
>   really nonsense.  What possible economic model
>   are you studying? Clearly
>   you have never
>   been involved in actually keeping an institution open,
>   done the books, administered a grants program
>   or negotiated IDC rates.
>   
>   Mike
>   
>   On
>   10/7/2015 4:57 PM, Stephen Thorpe wrote:
>   > I have long speculated that a primary goal
>   of keeping science funding flowing through the system
>   explains most/all of the economics. With that as the primary
>   goal, what the funding is actually spent on is very much a
>   secondary concern. Many institutions "recoup
>   overheads" from public science funding. So for every
>   dollar that they can spend on a subscription, the
>   institution might gain a dollar, and nobody has to do any
>   actual science, so everybody (institution, scientist,
>   publisher) wins, except for the public! I speculate that
>   this is what is really driving "Open Access", and
>   possibly also the growing restrictions on sending specimens
>   between countries (so the taxonomist has to travel to the
>   specimen, paid for by public science funding!)
>   >
>   > Stephen
>   >
>   >
>   --------------------------------------------
>   > On Thu, 8/10/15, Dean Pentcheff <pentcheff at gmail.com>
>   wrote:
>   >
>   >   Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Help
>   with finding a paper
>   >   To:
>   "Fred Schueler" <bckcdb at istar.ca>
>   >   Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
>   <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
>   "David Seburn" <davidseburn at sympatico.ca>
>   >   Received: Thursday, 8
>   October, 2015, 11:47 AM
>   >
>   >   I speculate that it has
>   >   nothing to do with
>   taxonomists or environmental
>   >   consultants. Both of those
>   constituencies are
>   >   so tiny
>   and commercially
>   >   trivial
>   that they
>   >   simply don't
>   count when publishers develop policies.
>   >
>   >   The people who can pay are
>   >   commercial biomedical and
>   industrial
>   >   researchers.
>   Their ability to pay (and their
>   >   corporation's legal
>   obligation
>   >   to do so)
>   >   drives the system.
>   >
>   >   -Dean
>   >   --
>   >   Dean Pentcheff
>   >   pentcheff at gmail.com
>   >
>   >   On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at
>   3:20
>   >   PM, Fred Schueler
>   <bckcdb at istar.ca>
>   >   wrote:
>   >
>   >   > many have
>   >   written:
>   >   >
>   >   > Hello all
>   >   - I am having trouble getting
>   a copy of the following paper
>   >   from
>   >   >> my usual
>   sources...
>   >   >>
>   >   >
>   >   > * somebody should study
>   who is willing to
>   >   pay $39
>   for a paper they've only
>   >   >
>   >   known through the
>   publisher's website abstract - if they
>   >   know it's really
>   >   > good they must
>   >   have known somebody who has
>   the pdf or an institutional
>   >   > subscription, and gotten
>   a copy that way,
>   >   and
>   otherwise they just ask
>   >   > TAXACOM.
>   >   >
>   >   > You'd assume it
>   >   would be commercial
>   consultants who would be willing to
>   >   > just click $39 away, but
>   in their
>   >   environmental
>   assessments they never seem
>   >   > to cite anything from
>   the peer-reviewed
>   >   literature. A real mystery -
>   maybe
>   >   > the
>   >   publishers just put those
>   whacking great prices on the
>   >   individual
>   >   > articles to keep
>   libraries
>   >   terrified into
>   paying the whacking great prices
>   >   > for subscriptions.
>   >   >
>   >   > does anyone know?
>   >   >
>   >   > fred.
>   >   >
>   >   ------------------------------------------------------------
>   >   >
>      Frederick W.
>   >   Schueler & Aleta
>   Karstad
>   >   > Daily
>   >   Paintings - http://karstaddailypaintings.blogspot.com/
>   >   > Vulnerable Watersheds -
>   http://vulnerablewaters.blogspot.ca/
>   >   > Mudpuppy Night in Oxford
>   Mills - http://pinicola.ca/mudpup1.htm
>   >   >     RR#2
>   Bishops Mills,
>   >   Ontario,
>   Canada K0G 1T0
>   >   >
>   on the
>   >   Smiths Falls
>   Limestone Plain 44* 52'N 75* 42'W
>   >   >
>      (613)258-3107 <bckcdb
>   >   at istar.ca> http://pinicola.ca/
>   >   >
>   >   ------------------------------------------------------------
>   >   >
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>   
>   --
>   __________________________________________________
>   
>   Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D.,
>   F.R.E.S.
>   
>   Montana Entomology
>   Collection
>   Marsh Labs, Room 50
>   1911 West Lincoln Street
>   NW
>   corner of Lincoln and S.19th
>   Montana State
>   University
>   Bozeman, MT 59717
>   USA
>   
>   (406)
>   994-4610 (voice)
>   (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
>   mivie at montana.edu
>   
>   _______________________________________________
>   Taxacom Mailing List
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>   http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
>   The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
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>   
>   Celebrating 28 years of
>   Taxacom in 2015.
>   
>
> .
>

-- 
__________________________________________________

Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.

Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
1911 West Lincoln Street
NW corner of Lincoln and S.19th
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59717
USA

(406) 994-4610 (voice)
(406) 994-6029 (FAX)
mivie at montana.edu




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