[Taxacom] Help with finding a paper

Dean Pentcheff pentcheff at gmail.com
Thu Oct 8 01:37:56 CDT 2015


Pardon me for being Debbie Downer here, but... The entire enterprise of
taxonomy and digitization, while utterly (and truly) important to those
involved in it, is barely a zit on the side of the combined research
enterprise. Wrapping reasoning about scientific publishing and funding as a
whole around taxonomy is, to be charitable, parochial. On that scale,
taxonomy just doesn't matter, and certainly doesn't constitute an
"industry".

-Dean
-- 
Dean Pentcheff
pentcheff at gmail.com

On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 3:41 AM, Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
wrote:

> Mike,
>
> Buying a research paper can be a valid use of funds, yes, but it can also
> be a way to dispose of funding that would otherwise have to be used
> unprofitably. The move to open access means that a huge proportion of
> research funding will have to be diverted to getting papers published. I'm
> speculating that both publishers and institutions with relatively
> unprofitable public good obligations both have a vested interest here. I'm
> not jealous/envious of anything. I'm just sick of seeing public money spent
> cheaply, instead of on the original taxonomic research that it was intended
> for. Perhaps not surprisingly, many scientists and managers are more
> concerned with making a living than they are with the actual science. There
> is a fine line here, but it is often crossed. We have umpteen digitisation
> projects all digitising the same stuff as each other. We have millions
> (worldwide) being wasted on databasing unrevised specimens. The list goes
> on. It simply IS
>  "driving an industry".
>
> Stephen
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Thu, 8/10/15, Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu> wrote:
>
>  Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Help with finding a paper
>  To: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
>  Received: Thursday, 8 October, 2015, 2:24 PM
>
>
>
>  On 10/7/2015 6:10 PM, Stephen Thorpe wrote:
>  > Mike,
>  >
>  > So have you been a senior manager in an
>  institution which uses public funding for taxonomic
>  research?
>  Yes, I have, as well as serving as
>  a National Science Foundation Program
>  Officer giving away $13 million a year, dealing
>  with oversight, IDC
>  rates and approval of
>  expenditures.   Everyone is under pressure to
>  think up projects that will bring in and spend
>  research money, but the
>  competition usually
>  means that they cannot be total bullshit, although
>  some occasionally are.  Strangely, many great
>  advances are made by
>  people on projects
>  accused of such bs by the jealous or envious.  But,
>  your example would require that this is
>  commonplace enough to drive an
>  industry.
>  Not a chance.  And, your example suggests an institution
>  gets
>  a 100% ICD that becomes unrestricted
>  for unsupervised expenditures, and
>  I have
>  never seen such a thing, nor heard credible first-hand
>  examples.
>  Buying a research paper is a
>  valid use of funds, so your example of it
>  being done to waste money is ludicrous.  Find
>  a librarian that would
>  agree to such an
>  example.  Every library on earth has to prioritize
>  expenditures, and has a backlog of things that
>  are validly needed. Such
>  an example simply
>  would not allow such a person to survive in an
>  institution.
>
>  Mike
>
>
>  > I haven't, but, by your argument, if
>  you haven't either, then you don't know what you are
>  talking about either, so my speculation could be true as far
>  as you know. I am talking about a situation where the
>  institution has the opportunity to grab more public funding
>  than it can cope with if it had to use all of the
>  non-overheads for actual research, due to having too few
>  scientists, and occupying most of their time with other more
>  profitable commercial work. So, either, they turn down the
>  extra public funding because they don't have the
>  manpower/time to spend it on research, or they take it
>  anyway, grab the overheads, and spend the rest on things
>  which don't require any science to be done, but which
>  can still be spun as part of the scientific research (e.g.
>  subscriptions, databasing, travel, etc.) Someone I know who
>  does work as a scientist in such an
>  >   institution has more than
>  once described to me how he and his colleagues are under
>  pressure from their employer to think up [quote]any bullshit
>  project[unquote] to spend research funding on. How
>  widespread a problem this is in the world I do not know.
>  >
>  > Stephen
>  >
>  >
>  --------------------------------------------
>  > On Thu, 8/10/15, Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu>
>  wrote:
>  >
>  >   Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Help
>  with finding a paper
>  >   To:
>  taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>  >   Received: Thursday, 8
>  October, 2015, 12:06 PM
>  >
>  >   Wow, glad you understand
>  >   that this is speculation,
>  because this is
>  >   really
>  nonsense.  What possible economic model
>  >   are you studying? Clearly
>  >   you have never
>  >   been involved in actually
>  keeping an institution open,
>  >   done the books, administered
>  a grants program
>  >   or
>  negotiated IDC rates.
>  >
>  >   Mike
>  >
>  >   On
>  >   10/7/2015 4:57 PM, Stephen
>  Thorpe wrote:
>  >   > I have
>  long speculated that a primary goal
>  >   of keeping science funding
>  flowing through the system
>  >   explains most/all of the
>  economics. With that as the primary
>  >   goal, what the funding is
>  actually spent on is very much a
>  >   secondary concern. Many
>  institutions "recoup
>  >   overheads" from public
>  science funding. So for every
>  >   dollar that they can spend on
>  a subscription, the
>  >   institution might gain a
>  dollar, and nobody has to do any
>  >   actual science, so everybody
>  (institution, scientist,
>  >   publisher) wins, except for
>  the public! I speculate that
>  >   this is what is really
>  driving "Open Access", and
>  >   possibly also the growing
>  restrictions on sending specimens
>  >   between countries (so the
>  taxonomist has to travel to the
>  >   specimen, paid for by public
>  science funding!)
>  >   >
>  >   > Stephen
>  >   >
>  >   >
>  >   --------------------------------------------
>  >   > On Thu, 8/10/15, Dean
>  Pentcheff <pentcheff at gmail.com>
>  >   wrote:
>  >   >
>  >   >   Subject:
>  Re: [Taxacom] Help
>  >   with
>  finding a paper
>  >   >   To:
>  >   "Fred Schueler"
>  <bckcdb at istar.ca>
>  >   >   Cc:
>  "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
>  >   <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
>  >   "David Seburn"
>  <davidseburn at sympatico.ca>
>  >   >   Received:
>  Thursday, 8
>  >   October, 2015,
>  11:47 AM
>  >   >
>  >   >   I speculate
>  that it has
>  >   >   nothing to
>  do with
>  >   taxonomists or
>  environmental
>  >   >   consultants.
>  Both of those
>  >   constituencies are
>  >   >   so tiny
>  >   and commercially
>  >   >   trivial
>  >   that they
>  >   >   simply
>  don't
>  >   count when
>  publishers develop policies.
>  >   >
>  >   >   The people
>  who can pay are
>  >   >   commercial
>  biomedical and
>  >   industrial
>  >   >   researchers.
>  >   Their ability to pay (and
>  their
>  >   >   corporation's
>  legal
>  >   obligation
>  >   >   to do
>  so)
>  >   >   drives the
>  system.
>  >   >
>  >   >   -Dean
>  >   >   --
>  >   >   Dean
>  Pentcheff
>  >   >   pentcheff at gmail.com
>  >   >
>  >   >   On Wed, Oct
>  7, 2015 at
>  >   3:20
>  >   >   PM, Fred
>  Schueler
>  >   <bckcdb at istar.ca>
>  >   >   wrote:
>  >   >
>  >   >   > many
>  have
>  >   >   written:
>  >   >   >
>  >   >   > Hello
>  all
>  >   >   - I
>  am having trouble getting
>  >   a copy of the following
>  paper
>  >   >   from
>  >   >   >> my
>  usual
>  >   sources...
>  >   >   >>
>  >   >   >
>  >   >   > *
>  somebody should study
>  >   who
>  is willing to
>  >   >   pay $39
>  >   for a paper they've
>  only
>  >   >   >
>  >   >   known
>  through the
>  >   publisher's website
>  abstract - if they
>  >   >   know
>  it's really
>  >   >   > good
>  they must
>  >   >   have known
>  somebody who has
>  >   the pdf
>  or an institutional
>  >   >   >
>  subscription, and gotten
>  >   a
>  copy that way,
>  >   >   and
>  >   otherwise they just ask
>  >   >   >
>  TAXACOM.
>  >   >   >
>  >   >   >
>  You'd assume it
>  >   >   would be
>  commercial
>  >   consultants who
>  would be willing to
>  >   >   > just
>  click $39 away, but
>  >   in
>  their
>  >   >   environmental
>  >   assessments they never
>  seem
>  >   >   > to
>  cite anything from
>  >   the
>  peer-reviewed
>  >   >   literature.
>  A real mystery -
>  >   maybe
>  >   >   > the
>  >   >   publishers
>  just put those
>  >   whacking
>  great prices on the
>  >   >   individual
>  >   >   >
>  articles to keep
>  >   libraries
>  >   >   terrified
>  into
>  >   paying the whacking
>  great prices
>  >   >   > for
>  subscriptions.
>  >   >   >
>  >   >   > does
>  anyone know?
>  >   >   >
>  >   >   >
>  fred.
>  >   >   >
>  >   >   ------------------------------------------------------------
>  >   >   >
>  >      Frederick W.
>  >   >   Schueler
>  & Aleta
>  >   Karstad
>  >   >   >
>  Daily
>  >   >   Paintings -
>  http://karstaddailypaintings.blogspot.com/
>  >   >   >
>  Vulnerable Watersheds -
>  >   http://vulnerablewaters.blogspot.ca/
>  >   >   >
>  Mudpuppy Night in Oxford
>  >   Mills - http://pinicola.ca/mudpup1.htm
>  >   >   >
>     RR#2
>  >   Bishops
>  Mills,
>  >   >   Ontario,
>  >   Canada K0G 1T0
>  >   >   >
>  >   on the
>  >   >   Smiths
>  Falls
>  >   Limestone Plain 44*
>  52'N 75* 42'W
>  >   >   >
>  >      (613)258-3107 <bckcdb
>  >   >   at
>  istar.ca> http://pinicola.ca/
>  >   >   >
>  >   >   ------------------------------------------------------------
>  >   >   >
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>  >   > Celebrating 28 years
>  >   of Taxacom in 2015.
>  >
>  >   --
>  >   __________________________________________________
>  >
>  >   Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D.,
>  >   F.R.E.S.
>  >
>  >   Montana Entomology
>  >   Collection
>  >   Marsh Labs, Room 50
>  >   1911 West Lincoln Street
>  >   NW
>  >   corner of Lincoln and
>  S.19th
>  >   Montana State
>  >   University
>  >   Bozeman, MT 59717
>  >   USA
>  >
>  >   (406)
>  >   994-4610 (voice)
>  >   (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
>  >   mivie at montana.edu
>  >
>  >   _______________________________________________
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>  >   The Taxacom Archive back to
>  1992 may be
>  >   searched at:
>  http://taxacom.markmail.org
>  >
>  >   Celebrating 28 years of
>  >   Taxacom in 2015.
>  >
>  >
>  > .
>  >
>
>  --
>  __________________________________________________
>
>  Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D.,
>  F.R.E.S.
>
>  Montana Entomology
>  Collection
>  Marsh Labs, Room 50
>  1911 West Lincoln Street
>  NW
>  corner of Lincoln and S.19th
>  Montana State
>  University
>  Bozeman, MT 59717
>  USA
>
>  (406)
>  994-4610 (voice)
>  (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
>  mivie at montana.edu
>
>  _______________________________________________
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>  The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
>  searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
>
>  Celebrating 28 years of
>  Taxacom in 2015.
>
> _______________________________________________
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