[Taxacom] more dead bodies...

John Grehan calabar.john at gmail.com
Tue Oct 20 20:52:29 CDT 2015


Of course if it had been a slime mold etc who would have cared?

John Grehan

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 9:28 PM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hi All,                 If one really wanted to make this a win-win
> situation, I don't see why they couldn't keep the bird in captivity until
> it died a natural death.  They could presumably collect bodily fluids for
> molecular analyses for an extended period of time, as well getting most of
> the morphological data one might want.  Might have even gotten a few
> unexpected insights into its behavior.  It might not be as big a draw as
> the last passenger pigeon was, but it would have been positive press
> instead of bad press (and you still have the specimen after it dies).
>    And if they could have gotten a female as well, perhaps even an attempt
> at captive breeding of some sort (naturally, artificial insemination or
> whatever).  It might have been more difficult, but who knows what they
> might have learned keeping the bird alive.   In any case, such an effort
> could also have averted a media debacle, and perhaps even been turned into
> a positive media event.  With the explosion of social media, one has to now
> keep it mind and even try to use it to achieve positive press (rather than
> negative).  The times they are a changing.
> ------------------Ken
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:30:49 -0200
> > From: scott.thomson321 at gmail.com
> > To: gslibardi at gmail.com
> > CC: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] more dead bodies...
> >
> > Just one little addit. I am not sure exactly how this story first
> developed
> > into a public story as it has. This is a sensitive topic, particularly to
> > some, and some areas of what various sciences do are maybe best trodden
> > gently with the press. If this was not generally known but then written
> up
> > and published world wide voluntarily, that should be done extremely
> > carefully. Honestly I would advise against it. But if you chose to do it
> > you would have to speak to people on their terms as well as explain the
> > science. I think that has not been done here. Hence the media explosion.
> >
> > Cheers, Scott
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 7:11 PM, Scott Thomson <
> scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Based on my reading of this as it came up, I mostly saw and have
> commented
> > > on it in various posts in the social media, I also agree with this
> > > collection. A population of 1500-4000 in the Solomons is fairly good, I
> > > have no information to refute that population estimate.
> > >
> > > Its not that I would go out and randomly kill for science either, and
> > > agree that is a bad way of putting it, but some collection is
> necessary and
> > > I think with this species it was. First up it was represented by two
> > > specimens both female, at least one presumably a type, if not both.
> Birds
> > > are renowned for and generally described on the basis of their sexual
> > > dimorphism, usually with males. Also in vertebrate phylogenies it is
> > > expected that molecular data is included these days, this would mean
> to get
> > > it from this species would require destructive sampling of probably
> types
> > > that were probably preserved with arsenic or similar, I do not know, so
> > > your chances are you will get fragmentary mtDNA at best. So a fresh
> > > specimen is a good idea. That it is a male is very useful for
> morphology.
> > >
> > > In 1997 I demonstrated that a fossil species from Riversleigh was the
> same
> > > species as the living taxon still occurring nearby, which was an
> > > undescribed species. Hence we ended up with the living species Elseya
> > > lavarackorum whose holotype is a fossil. How do people think I
> compared a
> > > living species, virtually unknown to science, to a piece of rock?
> > >
> > > I think it is a case by case basis, sometimes it is not justified, but
> as
> > > long as a scientist puts forth a reasoned and reasonable argument for
> doing
> > > it I will support them.
> > >
> > > I think as far as a bad name for us, people need to understand better,
> and
> > > on the social media explosians I saw many who initially exploded calmed
> > > down and saw the other point of view once it was explained. Not all
> but not
> > > everyone is going to agree with everything anyone does, such is life.
> > >
> > > Cheers, Scott
> > >
> > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 6:07 PM, Gustavo S. Libardi <
> gslibardi at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Just making a point: I agree with Filardi and, as Francisco, belong to
> > >> those who have serious concerns to killing rare animals for scientific
> > >> purposes. I mean: things aren't mutually excludent.
> > >>
> > >> Fillardi made a very detailed explanation of the situation on his
> article
> > >> (link from Orscar's message), if one considers there was previous
> demand
> > >> of
> > >> such thing.
> > >>
> > >> Of course, we have to deal with fallacies every single day in science.
> > >> Nevertheless we must not be afraid to assume the results of thousands
> > >> scientific studies that used specimens of scientific collections to
> > >> produce
> > >> a very distinctive view of the biodiversity since Linnaeus. If a
> mining
> > >> company use this kind of argument (if an expert can kill a bird, we
> also
> > >> should be able to do it!), well, we must be very prepared to
> demonstrate
> > >> that both activities are very, very different...
> > >>
> > >> To reduce the scientific collection of specimens as nothing more as
> > >> "killing individuals" is a misleading point of view.
> > >>
> > >> 2015-10-20 16:46 GMT-03:00 Francisco Welter-Schultes <fwelter at gwdg.de
> >:
> > >>
> > >> > I do not agree with Filardi and belong to those who have serious
> > >> concerns
> > >> > to killig rare animals for purposes of scientific study.
> > >> > I do not kill new species of terrestrial molluscs if I know they
> could
> > >> be
> > >> > rare. The estimation of 1500 or 4000 birds is somewhat speculative
> and
> > >> > seems not be based on reliable results of a scientific study.
> > >> >
> > >> > It is also the global reputation of science that suffers. As
> zoologists
> > >> we
> > >> > are widely recognised as experts, since we know more about these
> animals
> > >> > than most people do. We carry a special responsibility.
> > >> >
> > >> > Another undesired effect is that country authorities may enhance
> > >> > difficulties for scientific work in the last remaining reserves of
> > >> nature,
> > >> > if more pressure is coming up to take such decisions. Field
> research is
> > >> > confronted with increasing problems.
> > >> >
> > >> > Mining companies who like to destroy nature could easily argue that
> the
> > >> > birds cannot be so rare if even experts kill them. It is usually
> those
> > >> guys
> > >> > who have good contact to governments, not the scientists who could
> > >> correct
> > >> > such arguments and explain them the details.
> > >> >
> > >> > Francisco
> > >> > University of Goettingen, Germany
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Am 20.10.2015 um 16:58 schrieb Oscar Vargas:
> > >> >
> > >> >> I agree with you Michael,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> And, as a community we should show our support with Filardi. I am
> > >> >> starting a hashtag in twitter #IstandwithFilardi, please join to
> the
> > >> >> support and try to explain the public the importance of museum
> > >> specimens in
> > >> >> research and conservation.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Please share Filardi’s article in social media
> > >> >>
> > >> >> https://www.audubon.org/news/why-i-collected-moustached-kingfisher
> > >> >>
> > >> >> If interested in re-tweeting my post:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> https://twitter.com/Oscarmvargash/status/656484193359171584
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Oscar
> > >> >>
> > >> >> ____________________________
> > >> >> Oscar Vargas
> > >> >> PhD Candidate
> > >> >> Graduate Program in Plant Biology
> > >> >> Integrative Biology, Stop C0930
> > >> >> 205 W 24th Street
> > >> >> The University of Texas at Austin
> > >> >> Austin, TX 78712
> > >> >> http://www.oscarmvargas.com/
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Oct 20, 2015, at 2:34 AM, Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Researcher for NY museum kills rare bird in name of science
> > >> >>> <
> > >> >>>
> > >>
> http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/researcher-ny-museum-kills-rare-bird-science-article-1.2394167
> > >> >>> >*,
> > >> >>> draws outrage from PETA*
> > >> >>>
> > >>
> www.nydailynews.com/.../researcher-ny-museum-kills-rare-bird-science-art.
> > >> >>> ..
> > >> >>> Oct 12, 2015 - *Christopher Filardi*, Director of Pacific
> Programs at
> > >> the
> > >> >>> American ... New York-based scientist *Christopher Filardi* after
> he
> > >> >>> discovered the...
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Poor Chris Filardi is getting the witch-hunt treatment for daring
> to
> > >> >>> collect a specimen. I saw the story first in the UK media, and
> this
> > >> >>> anti-collecting hysteria is also spreading in other countries.
> CF's
> > >> work
> > >> >>> is
> > >> >>> first-rate and I quoted it several times in my last book, e.g. :
> 'the
> > >> >>> Solomon Islands have more endemic bird species than any other
> area of
> > >> >>> similar size in the world (Filardi and Smith, 2005)'. We should be
> > >> >>> supporting his  work, not stamping it out.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Michael Heads
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> --
> > >> >>> Dunedin, New Zealand.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> My books:
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Craw, R., J. Grehan, M. Heads. 1999. *Panbiogeography: Tracking
> the
> > >> >>> history
> > >> >>> of life*. Oxford University Press, New York.
> > >> >>> http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC
> > >> >>> <
> > >> >>>
> > >>
> http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC&dq=panbiogeography&source=gbs_navlinks_s
> > >> >>> >
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Heads, M. 2012.* Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics.
> > >> *University of
> > >> >>> California Press, Berkeley.
> > >> www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Heads, M. 2014.* Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular
> analysis*.
> > >> >>> Cambridge University Press, Cambridge.
> > >> www.cambridge.org/9781107041028
> > >> >>> _______________________________________________
> > >> >>> Taxacom Mailing List
> > >> >>> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >> >>> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > >> >>> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > >> >>> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Celebrating 28 years of Taxacom in 2015.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >> _______________________________________________
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> > >> >> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > >> >> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Celebrating 28 years of Taxacom in 2015.
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> > _______________________________________________
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> > >> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >> >
> > >> > Celebrating 28 years of Taxacom in 2015.
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> |MSc. Gustavo Simões Libardi - "Napister"
> > >> |Biólogo e Mestre em Ciências (Universidade de São Paulo/Brasil)
> > >> |Becário Latinoamericano de Doctorado - CONICET/Argentina
> > >> |Grupo de Estudio de Mamíferos Australes - Centro Nacional Patagónico
> > >> |Boulevard Almirante Brown 2915 - Casilla de Correo 128
> > >> |Cód. Postal: 9120 - Puerto Madryn, Chubut, Argentina
> > >> |CV Lattes: http://lattes.cnpq.br/8451514538020691
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> *"Tão grandes os empecilhos que a gigantesca e abundante mata virgem
> > >> apresenta contra sua destruição, e uma população ignorante, sem
> > >> compreensão
> > >> de seu próprio interesse, conseguiu destruí-la completamente em uma
> parte
> > >> significante de sua extensão original." Peter W. Lund, 1837, em Lagoa
> > >> Santa, MG.*
> > >> _______________________________________________
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> > >> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > >> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >>
> > >> Celebrating 28 years of Taxacom in 2015.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Scott Thomson
> > > Museu de Zoologia da Universidade de São Paulo
> > > Divisão de Vertebrados (Herpetologia)
> > > Avenida Nazaré, 481, Ipiranga
> > > 04263-000, São Paulo, SP, Brasil
> > > http://www.carettochelys.com
> > > ORCID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-1279-2722
> > > Lattes: *http://lattes.cnpq.br/0323517916624728*
> > > <
> https://wwws.cnpq.br/cvlattesweb/PKG_MENU.menu?f_cod=1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD#
> >
> > > Skype: Faendalimas
> > > Mobile Phone: +55 11 974 74 9095
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Thomson
> > Museu de Zoologia da Universidade de São Paulo
> > Divisão de Vertebrados (Herpetologia)
> > Avenida Nazaré, 481, Ipiranga
> > 04263-000, São Paulo, SP, Brasil
> > http://www.carettochelys.com
> > ORCID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-1279-2722
> > Lattes: *http://lattes.cnpq.br/0323517916624728*
> > <
> https://wwws.cnpq.br/cvlattesweb/PKG_MENU.menu?f_cod=1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD#
> >
> > Skype: Faendalimas
> > Mobile Phone: +55 11 974 74 9095
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
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> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >
> > Celebrating 28 years of Taxacom in 2015.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> Celebrating 28 years of Taxacom in 2015.
>



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