[Taxacom] more dead bodies...

Scott Thomson scott.thomson321 at gmail.com
Tue Oct 20 21:22:18 CDT 2015


Hi Kenneth,

Unfortunately when dealing with vertebrates some fairly major issues come
into play. International Agreements and Quarantine being the two most
difficult. To keep it alive would have probably meant it had to stay in the
Solomons. Australia and New Zealand would insist on up to 6 months
quarantine being an asia/ pacific bird species. To take it further afield
could be more difficult. SARS, being one fear.

Generally with collection permits and ethics approval on vertebrates you
can get a permit to take and kill, or capture and release, but take and
keep is almost impossible. In my 6 years serving on the animal ethics
committee at Uni of Canberra we never once approved a take and keep.

Also being wild caught adults any behavior seen would likely be induced by
captivity. Wild caught birds often just drop dead when brought into
captivity, from the shock of it, same goes for restraing them for feather
counts and taking of blood for DNA, even though muscle would be better.

Honestly in the end, taking it alive would in all liklihood have achieved
the same result. Although I didnt my father worked with birds, parrots,
they are incredibly timid animals and seriously can just die from stress in
front of you.

As i said, its a sensitive topic and would have been best left out of the
media, or dealt with much more carefully.

Cheers Scott
On Oct 20, 2015 11:55 PM, "John Bain" <John.Bain at scionresearch.com> wrote:

> Sad but true John.
>
> John Bain
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of
> John Grehan
> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 2:52 PM
> To: Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] more dead bodies...
>
> Of course if it had been a slime mold etc who would have cared?
>
> John Grehan
>
> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 9:28 PM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi All,                 If one really wanted to make this a win-win
> > situation, I don't see why they couldn't keep the bird in captivity until
> > it died a natural death.  They could presumably collect bodily fluids for
> > molecular analyses for an extended period of time, as well getting most
> of
> > the morphological data one might want.  Might have even gotten a few
> > unexpected insights into its behavior.  It might not be as big a draw as
> > the last passenger pigeon was, but it would have been positive press
> > instead of bad press (and you still have the specimen after it dies).
> >    And if they could have gotten a female as well, perhaps even an
> attempt
> > at captive breeding of some sort (naturally, artificial insemination or
> > whatever).  It might have been more difficult, but who knows what they
> > might have learned keeping the bird alive.   In any case, such an effort
> > could also have averted a media debacle, and perhaps even been turned
> into
> > a positive media event.  With the explosion of social media, one has to
> now
> > keep it mind and even try to use it to achieve positive press (rather
> than
> > negative).  The times they are a changing.
> > ------------------Ken
> >
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:30:49 -0200
> > > From: scott.thomson321 at gmail.com
> > > To: gslibardi at gmail.com
> > > CC: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] more dead bodies...
> > >
> > > Just one little addit. I am not sure exactly how this story first
> > developed
> > > into a public story as it has. This is a sensitive topic, particularly
> to
> > > some, and some areas of what various sciences do are maybe best trodden
> > > gently with the press. If this was not generally known but then written
> > up
> > > and published world wide voluntarily, that should be done extremely
> > > carefully. Honestly I would advise against it. But if you chose to do
> it
> > > you would have to speak to people on their terms as well as explain the
> > > science. I think that has not been done here. Hence the media
> explosion.
> > >
> > > Cheers, Scott
> > >
> > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 7:11 PM, Scott Thomson <
> > scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Based on my reading of this as it came up, I mostly saw and have
> > commented
> > > > on it in various posts in the social media, I also agree with this
> > > > collection. A population of 1500-4000 in the Solomons is fairly
> good, I
> > > > have no information to refute that population estimate.
> > > >
> > > > Its not that I would go out and randomly kill for science either, and
> > > > agree that is a bad way of putting it, but some collection is
> > necessary and
> > > > I think with this species it was. First up it was represented by two
> > > > specimens both female, at least one presumably a type, if not both.
> > Birds
> > > > are renowned for and generally described on the basis of their sexual
> > > > dimorphism, usually with males. Also in vertebrate phylogenies it is
> > > > expected that molecular data is included these days, this would mean
> > to get
> > > > it from this species would require destructive sampling of probably
> > types
> > > > that were probably preserved with arsenic or similar, I do not know,
> so
> > > > your chances are you will get fragmentary mtDNA at best. So a fresh
> > > > specimen is a good idea. That it is a male is very useful for
> > morphology.
> > > >
> > > > In 1997 I demonstrated that a fossil species from Riversleigh was the
> > same
> > > > species as the living taxon still occurring nearby, which was an
> > > > undescribed species. Hence we ended up with the living species Elseya
> > > > lavarackorum whose holotype is a fossil. How do people think I
> > compared a
> > > > living species, virtually unknown to science, to a piece of rock?
> > > >
> > > > I think it is a case by case basis, sometimes it is not justified,
> but
> > as
> > > > long as a scientist puts forth a reasoned and reasonable argument for
> > doing
> > > > it I will support them.
> > > >
> > > > I think as far as a bad name for us, people need to understand
> better,
> > and
> > > > on the social media explosians I saw many who initially exploded
> calmed
> > > > down and saw the other point of view once it was explained. Not all
> > but not
> > > > everyone is going to agree with everything anyone does, such is life.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers, Scott
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 6:07 PM, Gustavo S. Libardi <
> > gslibardi at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Just making a point: I agree with Filardi and, as Francisco, belong
> to
> > > >> those who have serious concerns to killing rare animals for
> scientific
> > > >> purposes. I mean: things aren't mutually excludent.
> > > >>
> > > >> Fillardi made a very detailed explanation of the situation on his
> > article
> > > >> (link from Orscar's message), if one considers there was previous
> > demand
> > > >> of
> > > >> such thing.
> > > >>
> > > >> Of course, we have to deal with fallacies every single day in
> science.
> > > >> Nevertheless we must not be afraid to assume the results of
> thousands
> > > >> scientific studies that used specimens of scientific collections to
> > > >> produce
> > > >> a very distinctive view of the biodiversity since Linnaeus. If a
> > mining
> > > >> company use this kind of argument (if an expert can kill a bird, we
> > also
> > > >> should be able to do it!), well, we must be very prepared to
> > demonstrate
> > > >> that both activities are very, very different...
> > > >>
> > > >> To reduce the scientific collection of specimens as nothing more as
> > > >> "killing individuals" is a misleading point of view.
> > > >>
> > > >> 2015-10-20 16:46 GMT-03:00 Francisco Welter-Schultes <
> fwelter at gwdg.de
> > >:
> > > >>
> > > >> > I do not agree with Filardi and belong to those who have serious
> > > >> concerns
> > > >> > to killig rare animals for purposes of scientific study.
> > > >> > I do not kill new species of terrestrial molluscs if I know they
> > could
> > > >> be
> > > >> > rare. The estimation of 1500 or 4000 birds is somewhat speculative
> > and
> > > >> > seems not be based on reliable results of a scientific study.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > It is also the global reputation of science that suffers. As
> > zoologists
> > > >> we
> > > >> > are widely recognised as experts, since we know more about these
> > animals
> > > >> > than most people do. We carry a special responsibility.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Another undesired effect is that country authorities may enhance
> > > >> > difficulties for scientific work in the last remaining reserves of
> > > >> nature,
> > > >> > if more pressure is coming up to take such decisions. Field
> > research is
> > > >> > confronted with increasing problems.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Mining companies who like to destroy nature could easily argue
> that
> > the
> > > >> > birds cannot be so rare if even experts kill them. It is usually
> > those
> > > >> guys
> > > >> > who have good contact to governments, not the scientists who could
> > > >> correct
> > > >> > such arguments and explain them the details.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Francisco
> > > >> > University of Goettingen, Germany
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Am 20.10.2015 um 16:58 schrieb Oscar Vargas:
> > > >> >
> > > >> >> I agree with you Michael,
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> And, as a community we should show our support with Filardi. I am
> > > >> >> starting a hashtag in twitter #IstandwithFilardi, please join to
> > the
> > > >> >> support and try to explain the public the importance of museum
> > > >> specimens in
> > > >> >> research and conservation.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Please share Filardi’s article in social media
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> https://www.audubon.org/news/why-i-collected-moustached-kingfisher
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> If interested in re-tweeting my post:
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> https://twitter.com/Oscarmvargash/status/656484193359171584
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Oscar
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> ____________________________
> > > >> >> Oscar Vargas
> > > >> >> PhD Candidate
> > > >> >> Graduate Program in Plant Biology
> > > >> >> Integrative Biology, Stop C0930
> > > >> >> 205 W 24th Street
> > > >> >> The University of Texas at Austin
> > > >> >> Austin, TX 78712
> > > >> >> http://www.oscarmvargas.com/
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> On Oct 20, 2015, at 2:34 AM, Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Researcher for NY museum kills rare bird in name of science
> > > >> >>> <
> > > >> >>>
> > > >>
> >
> http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/researcher-ny-museum-kills-rare-bird-science-article-1.2394167
> > > >> >>> >*,
> > > >> >>> draws outrage from PETA*
> > > >> >>>
> > > >>
> > www.nydailynews.com/.../researcher-ny-museum-kills-rare-bird-science-art
> .
> > > >> >>> ..
> > > >> >>> Oct 12, 2015 - *Christopher Filardi*, Director of Pacific
> > Programs at
> > > >> the
> > > >> >>> American ... New York-based scientist *Christopher Filardi*
> after
> > he
> > > >> >>> discovered the...
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> Poor Chris Filardi is getting the witch-hunt treatment for
> daring
> > to
> > > >> >>> collect a specimen. I saw the story first in the UK media, and
> > this
> > > >> >>> anti-collecting hysteria is also spreading in other countries.
> > CF's
> > > >> work
> > > >> >>> is
> > > >> >>> first-rate and I quoted it several times in my last book, e.g. :
> > 'the
> > > >> >>> Solomon Islands have more endemic bird species than any other
> > area of
> > > >> >>> similar size in the world (Filardi and Smith, 2005)'. We should
> be
> > > >> >>> supporting his  work, not stamping it out.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> Michael Heads
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> --
> > > >> >>> Dunedin, New Zealand.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> My books:
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> Craw, R., J. Grehan, M. Heads. 1999. *Panbiogeography: Tracking
> > the
> > > >> >>> history
> > > >> >>> of life*. Oxford University Press, New York.
> > > >> >>> http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC
> > > >> >>> <
> > > >> >>>
> > > >>
> >
> http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC&dq=panbiogeography&source=gbs_navlinks_s
> > > >> >>> >
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> Heads, M. 2012.* Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics.
> > > >> *University of
> > > >> >>> California Press, Berkeley.
> > > >> www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> Heads, M. 2014.* Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular
> > analysis*.
> > > >> >>> Cambridge University Press, Cambridge.
> > > >> www.cambridge.org/9781107041028
> > > >> >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >> >>> Taxacom Mailing List
> > > >> >>> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > >> >>> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > >> >>> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > >> >>> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> Celebrating 28 years of Taxacom in 2015.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> >> Taxacom Mailing List
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> > > >> >> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > >> >> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Celebrating 28 years of Taxacom in 2015.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > >> > Taxacom Mailing List
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> > > >> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > >> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > >> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Celebrating 28 years of Taxacom in 2015.
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> |MSc. Gustavo Simões Libardi - "Napister"
> > > >> |Biólogo e Mestre em Ciências (Universidade de São Paulo/Brasil)
> > > >> |Becário Latinoamericano de Doctorado - CONICET/Argentina
> > > >> |Grupo de Estudio de Mamíferos Australes - Centro Nacional
> Patagónico
> > > >> |Boulevard Almirante Brown 2915 - Casilla de Correo 128
> > > >> |Cód. Postal: 9120 - Puerto Madryn, Chubut, Argentina
> > > >> |CV Lattes: http://lattes.cnpq.br/8451514538020691
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> *"Tão grandes os empecilhos que a gigantesca e abundante mata virgem
> > > >> apresenta contra sua destruição, e uma população ignorante, sem
> > > >> compreensão
> > > >> de seu próprio interesse, conseguiu destruí-la completamente em uma
> > parte
> > > >> significante de sua extensão original." Peter W. Lund, 1837, em
> Lagoa
> > > >> Santa, MG.*
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Taxacom Mailing List
> > > >> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > >> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > >> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > >> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > >>
> > > >> Celebrating 28 years of Taxacom in 2015.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Scott Thomson
> > > > Museu de Zoologia da Universidade de São Paulo
> > > > Divisão de Vertebrados (Herpetologia)
> > > > Avenida Nazaré, 481, Ipiranga
> > > > 04263-000, São Paulo, SP, Brasil
> > > > http://www.carettochelys.com
> > > > ORCID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-1279-2722
> > > > Lattes: *http://lattes.cnpq.br/0323517916624728*
> > > > <
> >
> https://wwws.cnpq.br/cvlattesweb/PKG_MENU.menu?f_cod=1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD#
> > >
> > > > Skype: Faendalimas
> > > > Mobile Phone: +55 11 974 74 9095
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Scott Thomson
> > > Museu de Zoologia da Universidade de São Paulo
> > > Divisão de Vertebrados (Herpetologia)
> > > Avenida Nazaré, 481, Ipiranga
> > > 04263-000, São Paulo, SP, Brasil
> > > http://www.carettochelys.com
> > > ORCID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-1279-2722
> > > Lattes: *http://lattes.cnpq.br/0323517916624728*
> > > <
> >
> https://wwws.cnpq.br/cvlattesweb/PKG_MENU.menu?f_cod=1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD#
> > >
> > > Skype: Faendalimas
> > > Mobile Phone: +55 11 974 74 9095
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> > >
> > > Celebrating 28 years of Taxacom in 2015.
> >
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> >
> > Celebrating 28 years of Taxacom in 2015.
> >
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