[Taxacom] EukRef (was: resend Kingdom Protista)

Daniel Leo Gustafsson kotatsu.no.leo at gmail.com
Fri Oct 30 14:37:17 CDT 2015

Or maybe it just shows that it's easier to continue calling yourself
something your group has always called itself, rather than changing names
of your societies and journals and so on every time the taxonomy changes...
What people call themselves is irrelevant, but what people call the taxa
they study is highly relevant. If you'd said "No one publishes papers using
the name Chromista for this group", then that would have been a meaningful
argument. "No one publishes papers on the Chromista while calling
themselves Chromistologists" is not.

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 1:25 PM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:

>     I agree.  The organisms involved are protists, so we should call it
> Kingdom Protista.  And I'm just as willing to divide it into Subkingdoms
> Protozoa and Chromista.   The fact that noone calls themselves
> Chromistologists merely shows that those who study chromists regard
> chromists as a subgroup of protists (Protista), and that is the point I was
> actually making.
>              ----------------Ken
> P.S.  The reason there are no Avesologists is simply because Ornithology
> and those other sciences were named with Greek roots, while the taxa they
> studied were in Latin.
> ------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:00:19 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] EukRef (was: resend Kingdom Protista)
> From: kotatsu.no.leo at gmail.com
> To: kinman at hotmail.com
> CC: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> The point is that what a group of people that study a group call
> themselves has no bearing whatsoever on whether the taxon that name refers
> to is necessary or valid or not, nor even whether it exists or not. No one
> calls themselves a Chromistologist just like no one calls themselves an
> Avesologist. This is entirely irrelevant to what we call the taxa that are
> studied or how they are divided.
> But maybe I am alone here in thinking that the most useful classification
> is one that is based on the organisms involved, and not one based on what
> the people who study the organisms call themselves.
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 12:42 PM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> Hi Daniel G.,
>         Actually I find you counterargument a little  peculiar.  Terms
> like Ornithology, Entomology, Mmalacology, and Herpetology are based on
> Greek stems, while the taxa they study must be in Latin.   Anyway, you seem
> to have missed my point.  The point is that people who study Chromists
> never call themselves Chromistologists, but rather Protistologists (or
> sometimes just botanists, for the photosynthetic chromists).  Thus helping
> support my suggestion that we recognize a Kingdom Protista (with
> subkingdoms Protozoa and Chromista).   If you do a google search for
> Chromistology or Chromistologist, I bet you will get few, if any, hits.
> Hi Dan Lahr,
>        I found it interesting that you said EukRef was focusing on
> "microbes".   Most people call eukaryotic microbes "protists", and thus the
> continued use of Kingdom Protista and those who study them
> protistologists.  As Richard said, we sometimes need a  "down-to-earth
> and messy combination of shared and serial descent to identify such natural
> groups."  I have always thought it absurb that strict cladists believe it
> possible to classify all organisms without some paraphyly.
>                              -------------------Ken
> ------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:15:10 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] EukRef (was: resend Kingdom Protista)
> From: kotatsu.no.leo at gmail.com
> To: kinman at hotmail.com
> CC: dlahr at ib.usp.br; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> "After all, there are thousands of Protistologists, but I've never EVER
> heard anyone calling themselves Chromistologists."
> What a peculiar argument.
> How do you feel about the fact that ornithologists don't study the taxon
> Ornithos but Aves, and that palaeontologists don't study the taxon
> Palaeonta but (for instance) the Avesmetatarsalia?
> Not to mention Entomologists, Malacologists, Herptologists, and so on.
> Obviously something needs to be done.
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> Hi Dan,                     Cavalier-Smith's classifications are very good
> and very informative, but sometimes plagued by peculiar taxon names and
> unnecessary splitting (e.g., Kingdoms Protozoa and Chromista, instead of
> the single Kingdom Protista).  After all, there are thousands of
> Protistologists, but I've never EVER heard anyone calling themselves
> Chromistologists.
>           I checked out the EukRef website you mentioned, and I really
> like their dynamic pie-charts.  Although they don't use Linnaean
> categories, I was pleasantly surprised that they use Metazoa instead of
> Animalia.  I'm under the impression that they wanted to only use clades,
> but they do use Crustacea (which everyone knows is paraphyletic with
> respect to Insecta).  And I continue to advise against using Hexapoda, as
> it is probably polyphyletic (which we all agree is bad).
>          However, their "classification" of plants is rather peculiar.
> Especially dividing Archaeplastida into Chlorophyta and Streptophyta
> (charophytes + Embryophyceae), when charophytes are very often classified
> within Chlorophyta.  Furthermore, how many of the charophytes are included
> in Streptophyta varies widely from classification to classification.   And
> why Embryophyceae, when they could use Embryophyta or Metaphyta?   I am
> obviously happy they didn't use Plantae, but very sad that they didn't use
> Viridiplantae instead of the vague and problematic Streptophyta when they
> subdivided Archaeplastida.
>          -------------------Ken

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