[Taxacom] Literature request

Ivie, Michael mivie at montana.edu
Thu Aug 31 20:06:36 CDT 2017


(Groan). No it isn't, the price is the price, theft is taking something that does not belong to you, surely you know that!  Not giving it to someone for a lower price is not theft in any sense of the concept.  You are just being provocatively silly.

Mike
__________________________________________________
Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.

NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers

US Post Office Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
PO Box 173145
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59717
USA

UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
1911 West Lincoln Street
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59718
USA

(406) 994-4610 (voice)
(406) 994-6029 (FAX)
mivie at montana.edu

________________________________
From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 6:55:19 PM
To: Vinícius Antonio de Oliveira Dittrich; Taxacom; Ivie, Michael
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Literature request

Mike said "Is it ok to steal a Versace bag because they sell for a stupidly high price?"

Straw man! I didn't say that it was ok to steal something because they sell for a stupidly high price! I said that selling it for a stupidly high price is tantamount to theft.

Stephen

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 1/9/17, Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Literature request
 To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, "Vinícius Antonio de Oliveira Dittrich" <vinarc at gmail.com>, "Taxacom" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 Received: Friday, 1 September, 2017, 12:13 PM

 Dear Stephen,

 Sure it is theft, and I bet your mother would
 agree with me (I bet your
 mother is/was a
 very nice, morally upright lady!). Taking something that
 is not yours is theft.  It does not matter
 where it is. If it belongs to
 someone else,
 and you don't have their permission to take it, and you

 take it anyway, it is theft.  Very, very
 simple, a 5 year old can handle
 this.

 And, selling something for an
 outrageous amount is not theft, com'on
 Stephen!  That argument is beneath you.  Is
 it ok to steal a Versace bag
 because they
 sell for a stupidly high price?  Of course not.

 Mike


 On 8/31/2017 6:05 PM, Stephen
 Thorpe wrote:
 > On the other hand, I
 would say that theft is publishers selling scientific
 literature for an exorbitant cost! It may be theft to upload
 copyright protected material, but is it theft to download it
 from a site that has illegally uploaded it, particularly if
 only for fair use/noncommercial use? So, I guess, Mike, it
 really ISN'T that simple!
 >
 > Stephen
 >
 >
 --------------------------------------------
 > On Fri, 1/9/17, Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu>
 wrote:
 >
 >   Subject:
 Re: [Taxacom] Literature request
 >   To:
 "Vinícius Antonio de Oliveira Dittrich" <vinarc at gmail.com>,
 "Taxacom" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 >   Received: Friday, 1 September, 2017,
 11:20 AM
 >
 >
 Dear Vinicius,
 >
 >   No, you have not understood
 >   me.  To me theft is wrong.  If there
 is a
 >   law against theft of
 biodiversity, to violate
 >   it is theft
 and is
 >   wrong.   If there is
 >   property that is not mine, and I take
 it, it is
 >   theft and it is wrong.
 Theft of intellectual
 >   property is as
 wrong as
 >   theft of
 >   biodiversity or theft of a car.
 Downloading an open access
 >
 >   paper is not theft, it is not wrong.
 If
 >   your papers are open access,
 >   wonderful,
 >
 thank you, and anyone who takes them are morally correct.
 >   If
 >   you write a
 book, and it is for sale and
 >   covered
 by copyright, and
 >   someone makes a
 >   PDF and distributes it without your
 permission it is
 >   theft. This is
 really very simple.
 >
 >   Mike
 >
 >
 >   On 8/31/2017
 5:09 PM,
 >   Vinícius Antonio de
 Oliveira Dittrich wrote:
 >   >
 >   >    Dear Michael,
 >   >
 >   >
  I think your
 >   point of view is not
 wrong, but is not right also. To
 >
 > me, steal intellectual property of others
 >   is to publish anything that
 >   > is not
 >
 mine, but I just put my name there as the author. Copying
 >
 >   > anything
 else for personal use is not
 >   steal
 (the definition of piracy)
 >   >
 –
 >   BTW, I wish all my papers and
 books and everything else
 >   could
 be
 >   > copied by any person,
 without
 >   any cost: science is not
 something to
 >   >
 >   profit, just as education is not… but
 many will disagree,
 >   for obvious
 >   > reasons. Regarding
 >   specimens carried out from Brazil, for
 many and
 >   > many years this was
 the rule, and if we
 >   want to see
 those specimens,
 >   > we have
 >   to travel a lot and spend too much
 money for this, because
 >
 >   > those specimens will never return
 to
 >   Brazil. So, your reasoning
 seems
 >   > to
 >
  be: steal part of the biodiversity is OK, but copying a
 >   chapter of
 >   >
 a book no. Or maybe
 >   I've not
 understood what you wrote.
 >   >
 >   >    Best regard,
 >   >
 >   >
  Vinícius
 >   >
 >   >
 >   >
 >   2017-08-31 19:30 GMT-03:00 Michael A.
 Ivie <mivie at montana.edu
 >
 >   >
 <mailto:mivie at montana.edu>>:
 >   >
 >   >
    I note your
 >   irony Geoff,
 >   >
 >   >
 >   It always amazes me when people are so
 cavalier about
 >   simple
 >   >     theft. I want it, I
 >   don't want to pay for it, he has
 it, I will
 >   >     steal it.
 Poor me. No moral
 >   compunction at
 all.
 >   >
 >
 >     Particularly when a country is so
 >   fanatical about anyone stealing
 >   >
 >   their
 biodiversity specimens, but are completely OK with
 >   their
 >   >
    scientists stealing
 >
 intellectual property of others.  Brazil is an
 >   >     example, tons of stolen
 literature
 >   available there, but try
 taking
 >   >     a
 >   beetle out without "paying"
 for it,  that means
 >   jail!  Just
 an
 >   >     example, there
 >   are more countries like this than
 countries not
 >   >     like
 this.  Some you can steal both
 >
 specimens and books.
 >   >
 >   >     Grumpy Mike
 >   >
 >   >
 >   >
 >   >
    On 8/31/2017 4:06 PM, Geoff Read
 >
  wrote:
 >   >
 >
 >
 >   Well it's a modernish book
 in print available from
 >   the
 >   >         publisher, or
 >   >         secondhand for a
 small sum.
 >   >
 >   >         You mean
 >   perhaps where can you get a pirated
 pdf?
 >   >
 >
 >         Try
 >   Google - a
 dodgy Russian site has it.
 >   >
 >   >         Geoff
 >   >
 >   >
 >   >         On Fri, September 1,
 2017 3:42
 >   am, Luis POPA wrote:
 >   >
 >   >
          Dear Taxacomers,
 >
 >             Does anyone know a place
 >   where I can find an electronic
 >   >
 >
 version of the
 >   >
 >      book bellow? Actually I'm
 interested only in the
 >   chapter
 >   >             on random
 >   >             genetic drift
 (pages
 >   88-98).
 >   >
 >   >
 >        Hartl, D.L. 2000. A Primer of
 Population Genetics
 >   (3rd
 >   >             ed.).
 Sinauer
 >   >
 Associates, Sunderland,
 >   MA
 >   >
 >   >
 >      Thank you very much.
 >   >
 >      Best
 regards,
 >   >
 >
  luis
 >   >
 >
 >
 >   >             --
 >   >             Luis Popa,
 Ph.D.
 >   >             Senior
 Scientist
 >   >
 General Director
 >   >
    "Grigore
 >   Antipa"
 National Museum of Natural History
 >
 >             Sos. Kiseleff No. 1
 >   >             Bucharest
 011341
 >   >
 ROMANIA
 >   >             Tel:
 004 021 312 88
 >   26
 >   >             Fax: 004 021
 312
 >   88 63
 >
 >             Mobile: 004
 >
 0757 096 442
 >   >
 >   >
 >   >
      --
 >   >
 >        Geoffrey B. Read, Ph.D.
 >   >
 >
 Wellington, NEW ZEALAND
 >   >
 >   gread at actrix.gen.nz
 >   <mailto:gread at actrix.gen.nz>
 >   >
 >   >
 >
 _______________________________________________
 >   >         Taxacom Mailing
 List
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 >   >         <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom>
 >   >         The Taxacom Archive
 back to
 >   1992 may be searched at:
 >   >         http://taxacom.markmail.org
 >   >
 >   >
      Send
 >   Taxacom mailing list
 submissions to
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 >   >         <mailto:taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 >   >
 >   >
      Nurturing
 >   Nuance while
 Assaulting Ambiguity for 30 Some Years,
 >   >         1987-2017.
 >   >
 >   >
 >   >     --
 >
 >
 >
 __________________________________________________
 >   >
 >   >
    Michael A.
 >   Ivie, Ph.D.,
 F.R.E.S.
 >   >
 >
  >     NOTE: two addresses with different
 >   Zip Codes depending on carriers
 >   >
 >   >
    US Post Office Address:
 >   >
    Montana Entomology Collection
 >
 >     Marsh Labs, Room 50
 >
 >     PO Box 173145
 >   >
 >      Montana State University
 >   >
 >   Bozeman,
 MT 59717
 >   >     USA
 >   >
 >   >
    UPS, FedEx, DHL
 >   Address:
 >   >     Montana Entomology
 >   Collection
 >
 >     Marsh Labs, Room 50
 >
 >     1911 West Lincoln Street
 >
 >     Montana State University
 >
 >     Bozeman, MT 59718
 >   >
    USA
 >   >
 >
  >
 >   >     (406) 994-4610
 >
 <tel:%28406%29%20994-4610> (voice)
 >   >     (406) 994-6029
 >
 <tel:%28406%29%20994-6029> (FAX)
 >   >     mivie at montana.edu
 >   <mailto:mivie at montana.edu>
 >   >
 >   >
 >   >
 >
 _______________________________________________
 >   >     Taxacom Mailing List
 >   >     Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >   <mailto:Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
 >   >     http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 >   >     <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom>
 >   >     The Taxacom Archive back to
 1992 may
 >   be searched at:
 >   >     http://taxacom.markmail.org
 >   >
 >   >
    Send Taxacom
 >   mailing list
 submissions to
 >   >     taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >   <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 >   >     To subscribe or unsubscribe
 via the
 >   Web, visit:
 >   >     http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 >   >     <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom>
 >   >     You can reach the person
 managing
 >   the list at:
 >   >     taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >   >     <mailto:taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 >   >
 >   >
    Nurturing
 >   Nuance while
 Assaulting Ambiguity for 30 Some Years,
 >   >     1987-2017.
 >   >
 >   >
 >   >
 >   >
 >   > --
 >   >
 Prof. Dr. Vinícius Antonio de Oliveira
 >   Dittrich
 >   >
 Chefe do Departamento de
 >   Botânica -
 ICB - UFJF
 >   > Curador do
 >   Herbário CESJ
 >
 > Instituto de Ciências
 >
 Biológicas, Universidade Federal de Juiz de Fora
 >   > Rua José Lourenço Kelmer, s/n -
 Campus
 >   Universitário, Bairro São
 Pedro
 >   > Juiz
 >   de Fora, MG, Brazil - CEP 36036-900
 >   >
 >   Phone: 55
 (32) 2102-3224
 >   > Panoramio
 >   <http://www.panoramio.com/user/vina>
 >   > Pteridófitas - diversidade e
 >   conservação
 >
 > <http://www.icb.ufmg.br/pteridofitas/>
 >   > Herbário CESJ <http://www.ufjf.br/herbario/>
 >   > Academia.edu <http://ufjf-br.academia.edu/Vin%C3%ADciusDittrich>
 >   > Researchgate
 >   > <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Vinicius_Dittrich2?ev=prf_highl>
 >   > Flickr <http://www.flickr.com/photos/60085925@N02/>
 >   > Fototeca Vinícius Dittrich
 >   > <http://splink.cria.org.br/manager/detail?setlang=pt&resource=FVD>
 >   > Skype: vinacrt
 >
 >   --
 >
 __________________________________________________
 >
 >   Michael A.
 Ivie, Ph.D.,
 >   F.R.E.S.
 >
 >   NOTE: two
 >   addresses with different Zip Codes
 depending on carriers
 >
 >   US Post Office Address:
 >   Montana Entomology Collection
 >   Marsh Labs, Room 50
 >   PO Box
 >
 173145
 >   Montana State University
 >   Bozeman, MT 59717
 >   USA
 >
 >   UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
 >   Montana Entomology Collection
 >   Marsh Labs, Room 50
 >   1911 West
 >
 Lincoln Street
 >   Montana State
 University
 >   Bozeman, MT 59718
 >   USA
 >
 >
 >   (406)
 >   994-4610 (voice)
 >
  (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
 >   mivie at montana.edu
 >
 >
 _______________________________________________
 >   Taxacom Mailing List
 >   Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu,
 >   http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 >   The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may
 be
 >   searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
 >
 >   Send Taxacom
 mailing list
 >   submissions to taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >   To subscribe or unsubscribe via the
 Web, visit:
 >   http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 >   You can reach the person managing the
 list at:
 >   taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >
 >   Nurturing
 Nuance while
 >   Assaulting Ambiguity
 for 30 Some Years, 1987-2017.
 >
 > .
 >

 --
 __________________________________________________

 Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D.,
 F.R.E.S.

 NOTE: two
 addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers

 US Post Office Address:
 Montana Entomology Collection
 Marsh Labs, Room 50
 PO Box
 173145
 Montana State University
 Bozeman, MT 59717
 USA

 UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
 Montana Entomology Collection
 Marsh Labs, Room 50
 1911 West
 Lincoln Street
 Montana State University
 Bozeman, MT 59718
 USA


 (406)
 994-4610 (voice)
 (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
 mivie at montana.edu




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