[Taxacom] Literature request

Stephen Thorpe stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
Thu Aug 31 20:23:44 CDT 2017


(Bigger groan) The key word is 'tantamount', which I initially thought was clear from context, without having to mention the word explicity, but I see now that I need to "spoon feed" ...

Stephen

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 1/9/17, Ivie, Michael <mivie at montana.edu> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Literature request
 To: "Vinícius Antonio de Oliveira Dittrich" <vinarc at gmail.com>, "Taxacom" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>, "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
 Received: Friday, 1 September, 2017, 1:06 PM
 
 
 
 
 (Groan). No it isn't, the price is the price, theft is
 taking something that does not belong to you, surely you
 know that!  Not giving it to someone for a lower price is
 not theft in any sense of the concept.  You are just being
 provocatively silly.
 
 
 
 Mike
 
 __________________________________________________
 
 Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
 
 
 
 NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on
 carriers
 
 
 
 US Post Office Address:
 
 Montana Entomology Collection
 
 Marsh Labs, Room 50
 
 PO Box 173145
 
 Montana State University
 
 Bozeman, MT 59717
 
 USA
 
 
 
 UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
 
 Montana Entomology Collection
 
 Marsh Labs, Room 50
 
 1911 West Lincoln Street
 
 Montana State University
 
 Bozeman, MT 59718
 
 USA
 
 
 
 (406) 994-4610 (voice)
 
 (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
 
 mivie at montana.edu
 
 
 
 
 From: Stephen Thorpe
 <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
 
 Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 6:55:19 PM
 
 To: Vinícius Antonio de Oliveira Dittrich; Taxacom;
 Ivie, Michael
 
 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Literature request
  
 
 
 
 Mike said "Is it ok to
 steal a Versace bag because they sell for a stupidly high
 price?"
 
 
 
 Straw man! I didn't say that it was ok to steal
 something because they sell for a stupidly high price! I
 said that selling it for a stupidly high price is tantamount
 to theft.
 
 
 
 Stephen
 
 
 
 --------------------------------------------
 
 On Fri, 1/9/17, Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu>
 wrote:
 
 
 
  Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Literature request
 
  To: "Stephen Thorpe"
 <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, "Vinícius Antonio
 de Oliveira Dittrich" <vinarc at gmail.com>,
 "Taxacom" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 
  Received: Friday, 1 September, 2017, 12:13 PM
 
  
 
  Dear Stephen,
 
  
 
  Sure it is theft, and I bet your mother would
 
  agree with me (I bet your 
 
  mother is/was a
 
  very nice, morally upright lady!). Taking something that
 
 
  is not yours is theft.  It does not matter
 
  where it is. If it belongs to 
 
  someone else,
 
  and you don't have their permission to take it, and
 you
 
  
 
  take it anyway, it is theft.  Very, very
 
  simple, a 5 year old can handle 
 
  this.
 
  
 
  And, selling something for an
 
  outrageous amount is not theft, com'on 
 
  Stephen!  That argument is beneath you.  Is
 
  it ok to steal a Versace bag 
 
  because they
 
  sell for a stupidly high price?  Of course not.
 
  
 
  Mike
 
  
 
  
 
  On 8/31/2017 6:05 PM, Stephen
 
  Thorpe wrote:
 
  > On the other hand, I
 
  would say that theft is publishers selling scientific
 
  literature for an exorbitant cost! It may be theft to
 upload
 
  copyright protected material, but is it theft to download
 it
 
  from a site that has illegally uploaded it, particularly
 if
 
  only for fair use/noncommercial use? So, I guess, Mike,
 it
 
  really ISN'T that simple!
 
  >
 
  > Stephen
 
  >
 
  >
 
  --------------------------------------------
 
  > On Fri, 1/9/17, Michael A. Ivie
 <mivie at montana.edu>
 
  wrote:
 
  >
 
  >   Subject:
 
  Re: [Taxacom] Literature request
 
  >   To:
 
  "Vinícius Antonio de Oliveira Dittrich"
 <vinarc at gmail.com>,
 
  "Taxacom" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 
  >   Received: Friday, 1 September, 2017,
 
  11:20 AM
 
  >   
 
  >  
 
  Dear Vinicius,
 
  >   
 
  >   No, you have not understood
 
  >   me.  To me theft is wrong.  If there
 
  is a
 
  >   law against theft of
 
  biodiversity, to violate
 
  >   it is theft
 
  and is
 
  >   wrong.   If there is
 
  >   property that is not mine, and I take
 
  it, it is
 
  >   theft and it is wrong. 
 
  Theft of intellectual
 
  >   property is as
 
  wrong as
 
  >   theft of
 
  >   biodiversity or theft of a car.
 
  Downloading an open access
 
  >   
 
  >   paper is not theft, it is not wrong. 
 
  If
 
  >   your papers are open access,
 
  >   wonderful,
 
  >  
 
  thank you, and anyone who takes them are morally
 correct.
 
  >   If
 
  >   you write a
 
  book, and it is for sale and
 
  >   covered
 
  by copyright, and
 
  >   someone makes a
 
  >   PDF and distributes it without your
 
  permission it is
 
  >   theft. This is
 
  really very simple.
 
  >   
 
  >   Mike
 
  >   
 
  >   
 
  >   On 8/31/2017
 
  5:09 PM,
 
  >   Vinícius Antonio de
 
  Oliveira Dittrich wrote:
 
  >   >
 
  >   >    Dear Michael,
 
  >   >
 
  >   >  
 
   I think your
 
  >   point of view is not
 
  wrong, but is not right also. To
 
  >  
 
  > me, steal intellectual property of others
 
  >   is to publish anything that
 
  >   > is not
 
  >  
 
  mine, but I just put my name there as the author.
 Copying
 
  >   
 
  >   > anything
 
  else for personal use is not
 
  >   steal
 
  (the definition of piracy)
 
  >   >
 
  –
 
  >   BTW, I wish all my papers and
 
  books and everything else
 
  >   could
 
  be
 
  >   > copied by any person,
 
  without
 
  >   any cost: science is not
 
  something to
 
  >   >
 
  >   profit, just as education is not… but
 
  many will disagree,
 
  >   for obvious
 
  >   > reasons. Regarding
 
  >   specimens carried out from Brazil, for
 
  many and
 
  >   > many years this was
 
  the rule, and if we
 
  >   want to see
 
  those specimens,
 
  >   > we have
 
  >   to travel a lot and spend too much
 
  money for this, because
 
  >   
 
  >   > those specimens will never return
 
  to
 
  >   Brazil. So, your reasoning
 
  seems
 
  >   > to
 
  > 
 
   be: steal part of the biodiversity is OK, but copying
 a
 
  >   chapter of
 
  >   >
 
  a book no. Or maybe
 
  >   I've not
 
  understood what you wrote.
 
  >   >
 
  >   >    Best regard,
 
  >   >
 
  >   >  
 
   Vinícius
 
  >   >
 
  >   >
 
  >   >
 
  >   2017-08-31 19:30 GMT-03:00 Michael A.
 
  Ivie <mivie at montana.edu
 
  >   
 
  >   >
 
  <mailto:mivie at montana.edu>>:
 
  >   >
 
  >   > 
 
     I note your
 
  >   irony Geoff,
 
  >   >
 
  >   >
 
  >   It always amazes me when people are so
 
  cavalier about
 
  >   simple
 
  >   >     theft. I want it, I
 
  >   don't want to pay for it, he has
 
  it, I will
 
  >   >     steal it. 
 
  Poor me. No moral
 
  >   compunction at
 
  all.
 
  >   >
 
  >  
 
  >     Particularly when a country is so
 
  >   fanatical about anyone stealing
 
  >   >
 
  >   their
 
  biodiversity specimens, but are completely OK with
 
  >   their
 
  >   > 
 
     scientists stealing
 
  >  
 
  intellectual property of others.  Brazil is an
 
  >   >     example, tons of stolen
 
  literature
 
  >   available there, but try
 
  taking
 
  >   >     a
 
  >   beetle out without "paying"
 
  for it,  that means
 
  >   jail!  Just
 
  an
 
  >   >     example, there
 
  >   are more countries like this than
 
  countries not
 
  >   >     like
 
  this.  Some you can steal both
 
  >  
 
  specimens and books.
 
  >   >
 
  >   >     Grumpy Mike
 
  >   >
 
  >   >
 
  >   >
 
  >   > 
 
     On 8/31/2017 4:06 PM, Geoff Read
 
  > 
 
   wrote:
 
  >   >
 
  >  
 
  >
 
  >   Well it's a modernish book
 
  in print available from
 
  >   the
 
  >   >         publisher, or
 
  >   >         secondhand for a
 
  small sum.
 
  >   >
 
  >   >         You mean
 
  >   perhaps where can you get a pirated
 
  pdf?
 
  >   >
 
  >  
 
  >         Try
 
  >   Google - a
 
  dodgy Russian site has it.
 
  >   >
 
  >   >         Geoff
 
  >   >
 
  >   >
 
  >   >         On Fri, September 1,
 
  2017 3:42
 
  >   am, Luis POPA wrote:
 
  >   >
 
  >   >   
 
           Dear Taxacomers,
 
  >  
 
  >             Does anyone know a place
 
  >   where I can find an electronic
 
  >   >
 
  >         
 
  version of the
 
  >   >
 
  >      book bellow? Actually I'm
 
  interested only in the
 
  >   chapter
 
  >   >             on random
 
  >   >             genetic drift
 
  (pages
 
  >   88-98).
 
  >   >
 
  >   >
 
  >        Hartl, D.L. 2000. A Primer of
 
  Population Genetics
 
  >   (3rd
 
  >   >             ed.).
 
  Sinauer
 
  >   >            
 
  Associates, Sunderland,
 
  >   MA
 
  >   >
 
  >   >
 
  >      Thank you very much.
 
  >   >
 
  >      Best
 
  regards,
 
  >   >
 
  > 
 
   luis
 
  >   >
 
  >  
 
  >
 
  >   >             --
 
  >   >             Luis Popa,
 
  Ph.D.
 
  >   >             Senior
 
  Scientist
 
  >   >            
 
  General Director
 
  >   >         
 
     "Grigore
 
  >   Antipa"
 
  National Museum of Natural History
 
  >  
 
  >             Sos. Kiseleff No. 1
 
  >   >             Bucharest 
 
  011341
 
  >   >            
 
  ROMANIA
 
  >   >             Tel:
 
  004 021 312 88
 
  >   26
 
  >   >             Fax: 004 021
 
  312
 
  >   88 63
 
  >  
 
  >             Mobile: 004
 
  >  
 
  0757 096 442
 
  >   >
 
  >   >
 
  >   >   
 
       --
 
  >   >
 
  >        Geoffrey B. Read, Ph.D.
 
  >   >
 
  >     
 
  Wellington, NEW ZEALAND
 
  >   >
 
  >   gread at actrix.gen.nz
 
  >   <mailto:gread at actrix.gen.nz>
 
  >   >
 
  >   >
 
  >  
 
  _______________________________________________
 
  >   >         Taxacom Mailing
 
  List
 
  >   >         Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 
  >   <mailto:Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
 
  >   >         
 http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 
  >   >         <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom>
 
  >   >         The Taxacom Archive
 
  back to
 
  >   1992 may be searched at:
 
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  >   >
 
  >   >   
 
       Send
 
  >   Taxacom mailing list
 
  submissions to
 
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  >   <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 
  >   >         To subscribe or
 
  unsubscribe
 
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 http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 
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  >   >         You can reach the
 
  person
 
  >   managing the list at:
 
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 taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 
  >   >         <mailto:taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 
  >   >
 
  >   >   
 
       Nurturing
 
  >   Nuance while
 
  Assaulting Ambiguity for 30 Some Years,
 
  >   >         1987-2017.
 
  >   >
 
  >   >
 
  >   >     --
 
  >  
 
  >
 
  >  
 
  __________________________________________________
 
  >   >
 
  >   > 
 
     Michael A.
 
  >   Ivie, Ph.D.,
 
  F.R.E.S.
 
  >   >
 
  > 
 
   >     NOTE: two addresses with different
 
  >   Zip Codes depending on carriers
 
  >   >
 
  >   > 
 
     US Post Office Address:
 
  >   > 
 
     Montana Entomology Collection
 
  >  
 
  >     Marsh Labs, Room 50
 
  >  
 
  >     PO Box 173145
 
  >   >
 
  >      Montana State University
 
  >   >
 
  >   Bozeman,
 
  MT 59717
 
  >   >     USA
 
  >   >
 
  >   > 
 
     UPS, FedEx, DHL
 
  >   Address:
 
  >   >     Montana Entomology
 
  >   Collection
 
  >  
 
  >     Marsh Labs, Room 50
 
  >  
 
  >     1911 West Lincoln Street
 
  >  
 
  >     Montana State University
 
  >  
 
  >     Bozeman, MT 59718
 
  >   > 
 
     USA
 
  >   >
 
  > 
 
   >
 
  >   >     (406) 994-4610
 
  >  
 
  <tel:%28406%29%20994-4610> (voice)
 
  >   >     (406) 994-6029
 
  >  
 
  <tel:%28406%29%20994-6029> (FAX)
 
  >   >     mivie at montana.edu
 
  >   <mailto:mivie at montana.edu>
 
  >   >
 
  >   >
 
  >   >
 
  >  
 
  _______________________________________________
 
  >   >     Taxacom Mailing List
 
  >   >     Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 
  >   <mailto:Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
 
  >   >     http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 
  >   >     <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom>
 
  >   >     The Taxacom Archive back to
 
  1992 may
 
  >   be searched at:
 
  >   >     http://taxacom.markmail.org
 
  >   >
 
  >   > 
 
     Send Taxacom
 
  >   mailing list
 
  submissions to
 
  >   >     taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 
  >   <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 
  >   >     To subscribe or unsubscribe
 
  via the
 
  >   Web, visit:
 
  >   >     http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 
  >   >     <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom>
 
  >   >     You can reach the person
 
  managing
 
  >   the list at:
 
  >   >     taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 
  >   >     <mailto:taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 
  >   >
 
  >   > 
 
     Nurturing
 
  >   Nuance while
 
  Assaulting Ambiguity for 30 Some Years,
 
  >   >     1987-2017.
 
  >   >
 
  >   >
 
  >   >
 
  >   >
 
  >   > --
 
  >   >
 
  Prof. Dr. Vinícius Antonio de Oliveira
 
  >   Dittrich
 
  >   >
 
  Chefe do Departamento de
 
  >   Botânica -
 
  ICB - UFJF
 
  >   > Curador do
 
  >   Herbário CESJ
 
  >  
 
  > Instituto de Ciências
 
  >  
 
  Biológicas, Universidade Federal de Juiz de Fora
 
  >   > Rua José Lourenço Kelmer, s/n -
 
  Campus
 
  >   Universitário, Bairro São
 
  Pedro
 
  >   > Juiz
 
  >   de Fora, MG, Brazil - CEP 36036-900
 
  >   >
 
  >   Phone: 55
 
  (32) 2102-3224
 
  >   > Panoramio
 
  >   <http://www.panoramio.com/user/vina>
 
  >   > Pteridófitas - diversidade e
 
  >   conservação
 
  >  
 
  > <http://www.icb.ufmg.br/pteridofitas/>
 
  >   > Herbário CESJ <http://www.ufjf.br/herbario/>
 
  >   > Academia.edu <http://ufjf-br.academia.edu/Vin%C3%ADciusDittrich>
 
  >   > Researchgate
 
  >   > <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Vinicius_Dittrich2?ev=prf_highl>
 
  >   > Flickr <http://www.flickr.com/photos/60085925@N02/>
 
  >   > Fototeca Vinícius Dittrich
 
  >   > <http://splink.cria.org.br/manager/detail?setlang=pt&resource=FVD>
 
  >   > Skype: vinacrt
 
  >   
 
  >   --
 
  >  
 
  __________________________________________________
 
  >   
 
  >   Michael A.
 
  Ivie, Ph.D.,
 
  >   F.R.E.S.
 
  >   
 
  >   NOTE: two
 
  >   addresses with different Zip Codes
 
  depending on carriers
 
  >   
 
  >   US Post Office Address:
 
  >   Montana Entomology Collection
 
  >   Marsh Labs, Room 50
 
  >   PO Box
 
  >  
 
  173145
 
  >   Montana State University
 
  >   Bozeman, MT 59717
 
  >   USA
 
  >   
 
  >   UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
 
  >   Montana Entomology Collection
 
  >   Marsh Labs, Room 50
 
  >   1911 West
 
  >  
 
  Lincoln Street
 
  >   Montana State
 
  University
 
  >   Bozeman, MT 59718
 
  >   USA
 
  >   
 
  >   
 
  >   (406)
 
  >   994-4610 (voice)
 
  > 
 
   (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
 
  >   mivie at montana.edu
 
  >   
 
  >  
 
  _______________________________________________
 
  >   Taxacom Mailing List
 
  >   Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu,
 
  >   http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 
  >   The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may
 
  be
 
  >   searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
 
  >   
 
  >   Send Taxacom
 
  mailing list
 
  >   submissions to taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 
  >   To subscribe or unsubscribe via the
 
  Web, visit:
 
  >   http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 
  >   You can reach the person managing the
 
  list at:
 
  >   taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 
  >   
 
  >   Nurturing
 
  Nuance while
 
  >   Assaulting Ambiguity
 
  for 30 Some Years, 1987-2017.
 
  >   
 
  > .
 
  >
 
  
 
  -- 
 
  __________________________________________________
 
  
 
  Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D.,
 
  F.R.E.S.
 
  
 
  NOTE: two
 
  addresses with different Zip Codes depending on
 carriers
 
  
 
  US Post Office Address:
 
  Montana Entomology Collection
 
  Marsh Labs, Room 50
 
  PO Box
 
  173145
 
  Montana State University
 
  Bozeman, MT 59717
 
  USA
 
  
 
  UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
 
  Montana Entomology Collection
 
  Marsh Labs, Room 50
 
  1911 West
 
  Lincoln Street
 
  Montana State University
 
  Bozeman, MT 59718
 
  USA
 
  
 
  
 
  (406)
 
  994-4610 (voice)
 
  (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
 
  mivie at montana.edu
 
  
 
  
 
 
 
 


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