[Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer 1874"

Stephen Thorpe stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
Sun Sep 24 18:40:46 CDT 2017


I disagree. There are only a handful of cases (at least in entomology) where anyone has bothered to notice that the plates might predate the text of a work. So, they then change all the names (to the new priority dates), and this threatens stability!

Stephen

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 25/9/17, Francisco Welter-Schultes <fwelter at gwdg.de> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer 1874"
 To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 Received: Monday, 25 September, 2017, 12:30 PM
 
 As I said, I have no problem with
 it. Usually the dates are researched. 
 The
 problem is that it is difficult to find out where the dates
 have 
 been published. We have a typical case
 here. The problem is how to 
 connect such
 information.
 I have done such researches on
 dates myself, and did not have the 
 feeling
 you describe. I could have described more taxa, but in this
 
 epoch I just liked to do some library work
 and research some dates. 
 Working with such
 old works is interesting because as a scientist you 
 can learn a lot.
 Changing the
 rules, as you suggest, would distort a well established 
 system, and this would be much worse. We would
 have to revise the dates 
 of many thousand
 names, and also change names of species because of 
 changing precedences within species. This would
 threaten stability.
 
 -----
 Francisco
 
 Am 24.09.2017 um 23:46 schrieb Stephen
 Thorpe:
 > Clear and stable is important,
 yes, but so is simple (and not requiring work for no real
 gain or scientific relevance). Do you really think that such
 "work" (to determine historical dates of
 publication of plates) is a good use of research funding in
 a world where still untold thousands of taxa are
 undescribed?
 > 
 >
 Stephen
 > 
 >
 --------------------------------------------
 > On Mon, 25/9/17, Francisco Welter-Schultes
 <fwelter at gwdg.de>
 wrote:
 > 
 >  
 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer
 1874"
 >   To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >   Received: Monday, 25 September, 2017,
 9:38 AM
 >   
 >   The
 dates of such works are not
 >   the
 problem. It is possible to research
 >  
 them. You are right, it is additional work, but
 >   I have no problem with
 >   it. The most
 >  
 important thing is a clear and stable rule.
 >   
 >   -----
 >   Francisco
 >   
 >   Am
 >   24.09.2017
 um 23:21 schrieb Stephen Thorpe:
 >  
 > This is precisely the sort of
 >  
 nomenclatural nonsense which gives taxonomy a bad name!
 For
 >   God's sake, why not just
 have a simple rule in the Code
 >   which
 says that illustrations published before the text are
 >   deemed to be published simultaneously
 with the text? It
 >   would save so much
 pointless work trying to determine dates.
 >   Such work has absolutely no scientific
 content or merit.
 >   >
 >   > Stephen
 >  
 >
 >   >
 >  
 --------------------------------------------
 >   > On Sat, 23/9/17, Doug Yanega
 <dyanega at ucr.edu>
 >   wrote:
 >   >
 >   >
 >   Subject:
 [Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer
 >   1874"
 >  
 >   To: "iczn-list"
 >  
 <iczn-list at afriherp.org>,
 >   "taxacom" <TAXACOM at MAILMAN.NHM.KU.EDU>
 >   >   Received: Saturday, 23
 September, 2017,
 >   4:44 AM
 >   >
 >   >  
 Hi.
 >   Can anyone give a definitive
 statement
 >   >   regarding the
 work linked here:
 >   >
 >   >   http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/1221095#page/9/mode/1up
 >   >
 >   >  
 Here is the
 >   situation: this
 particular
 >   >   work, as
 >   linked here from the
 >   >
 >  
 Smithsonian's copy, LOOKS like a single
 >   >   work, and the second page
 says
 >   >   "Juli 1875".
 However, if you
 >   look at
 >   >   the plates at the end, they
 >   all
 >   >  
 have a date at the bottom that
 >  
 says
 >   >   1868. There are some
 names
 >   that
 >  
 >   appear differently in the text
 >   and
 >   >  
 plates, so potentially made
 >  
 available
 >   >   on different
 dates if they
 >   were *not*
 >   >   simultaneously issued.
 >   This
 >   >  
 potentially affects the
 >   validity of
 at
 >   >   least one genus name
 >   presently in
 >  
 >   use, so I would like to
 >   be
 certain I
 >   >   have the
 details
 >   correct.
 >   >
 >   >
 >   Neave, in the Nomenclator
 Zoologicus,
 >   >
 >    cites names in the plates as being
 >   >
 >   from 1868,
 and names in the text as
 >   >
 >   being from 1874.
 > 
  >
 >   >   References to this
 work in the NHM
 >   >   Catalog
 at
 >   >
 >  
 >   http://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/data/butmoth/
 >   >
 >   >  
 cite the names
 >   appearing in the
 plates
 >   >   as being
 >   from 1874 and the text
 >   >   as being from
 >   1875 (despite both being
 >   >   linked to
 >   the BHL copy which has
 >   >   them in a
 >   single work).
 >  
 >
 >   >   I have not yet been
 able to locate
 >   any
 >   >   source that explains (1)
 what
 >   >   *evidence* there is
 that the plates
 >   and
 >   >   text were published
 >   separately,
 >  
 >   nor (2) how and why one
 >   of
 the dates is
 >   >   usually given
 as
 >   1874, nor (3)
 >   >   why the dates of the
 >   presumed separate
 >   >   parts are given
 >   inconsistently by
 >   >   different sources.
 >   It also strikes me
 >   >   as odd that the
 >   work seems
 >  
 >   *uniformly* cited as
 >  
 "Felder &
 >   >  
 Rogenhofer"
 >   when the text
 rather clearly
 >   >   lists
 >   TWO Felders, Cajetan and Rudolf
 >   >
 >  
 (shouldn't it then be Felder,
 >  
 >
 >   Felder & Rogenhofer?).
 >   >
 >   >  
 This is very confusing, to say the
 >  
 >   least, and I would be grateful if
 >   >   anyone can point to something
 that
 >   >   would help iron this
 out.
 >   >
 >  
 >   Peace,
 >   >
 >   >   --
 >  
 >   Doug Yanega      Dept.
 >  
 >   of Entomology       Entomology
 >   Research
 >  
 >   Museum
 >   >   Univ. of
 California, Riverside, CA
 >   >  
 92521-0314     skype: dyanega
 >  
 >   phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer:
 >   >   opinions are mine, not
 UCR's)
 >   >
 >   >
 >       http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html
 >   >      "There are some
 enterprises
 >   in
 >   >   which a careful
 disorderliness
 >   >        
    is the
 >   >   true
 method" - Herman Melville,
 >   Moby
 Dick, Chap. 82
 >   >
 >   >
 >  
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