[Taxacom] Taxacom Digest, Vol 137, Issue 20

Holger Vetter antvet at t-online.de
Mon Sep 25 13:01:09 CDT 2017




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Von: taxacom-request at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
Betreff: Taxacom Digest, Vol 137, Issue 20
Datum: 25.09.2017, 19:00 Uhr
An: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu





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____________________________________


Today's Topics:

1. Re: "Felder & Rogenhofer 1874" (Stephen Thorpe)
2. Re: "Felder & Rogenhofer 1874" (Francisco Welter-Schultes)
3. Re: "Felder & Rogenhofer 1874" (Stephen Thorpe)
4. Re: "Felder & Rogenhofer 1874" (Francisco Welter-Schultes)
5. Re: "Felder & Rogenhofer 1874" (Stephen Thorpe)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2017 21:21:42 +0000 (UTC)
From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz> <http://yahoo.co.nz>> ;
To: iczn-list <iczn-list at afriherp.org> <http://afriherp.org>> ;, taxacom
<TAXACOM at MAILMAN.NHM.KU.EDU>, Doug Yanega <dyanega at ucr.edu>
<http://ucr.edu>> ;
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer 1874"
Message-ID: <668191260.8870062.1506288102431 at mail.yahoo.com>
<http://mail.yahoo.com>> ;
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

This is precisely the sort of nomenclatural nonsense which gives taxonomy a 
bad name! For God's sake, why not just have a simple rule in the Code which 
says that illustrations published before the text are deemed to be 
published simultaneously with the text? It would save so much pointless 
work trying to determine dates. Such work has absolutely no scientific 
content or merit.

Stephen

--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 23/9/17, Doug Yanega <dyanega at ucr.edu> <http://ucr.edu>> ; wrote:

Subject: [Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer 1874"
To: "iczn-list" <iczn-list at afriherp.org> <http://afriherp.org>> ;, 
"taxacom" <TAXACOM at MAILMAN.NHM.KU.EDU>
Received: Saturday, 23 September, 2017, 4:44 AM

Hi. Can anyone give a definitive statement
regarding the work linked here:

http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/1221095#page/9/mode/1up
<http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/1221095#page/9/mode/1up>

Here is the situation: this particular
work, as linked here from the
Smithsonian's copy, LOOKS like a single
work, and the second page says
"Juli 1875". However, if you look at
the plates at the end, they all
have a date at the bottom that says
1868. There are some names that
appear differently in the text and
plates, so potentially made available
on different dates if they were *not*
simultaneously issued. This
potentially affects the validity of at
least one genus name presently in
use, so I would like to be certain I
have the details correct.

Neave, in the Nomenclator Zoologicus,
cites names in the plates as being
from 1868, and names in the text as
being from 1874.

References to this work in the NHM
Catalog at

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/data/butmoth
<http://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/data/butmoth> /

cite the names appearing in the plates
as being from 1874 and the text
as being from 1875 (despite both being
linked to the BHL copy which has
them in a single work).

I have not yet been able to locate any
source that explains (1) what
*evidence* there is that the plates and
text were published separately,
nor (2) how and why one of the dates is
usually given as 1874, nor (3)
why the dates of the presumed separate
parts are given inconsistently by
different sources. It also strikes me
as odd that the work seems
*uniformly* cited as "Felder &
Rogenhofer" when the text rather clearly
lists TWO Felders, Cajetan and Rudolf
(shouldn't it then be Felder,
Felder & Rogenhofer?).

This is very confusing, to say the
least, and I would be grateful if
anyone can point to something that
would help iron this out.

Peace,

--
Doug Yanega      Dept.
of Entomology      Entomology Research
Museum
Univ. of California, Riverside, CA
92521-0314    skype: dyanega
phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer:
opinions are mine, not UCR's)
         
    http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html
<http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html>
  "There are some enterprises in
which a careful disorderliness
        is the
true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82

_______________________________________________
Taxacom Mailing List
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The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
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To subscribe or unsubscribe via the
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Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting
Ambiguity for 30 Some Years, 1987-2017.



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2017 23:38:16 +0200
From: Francisco Welter-Schultes <fwelter at gwdg.de> <http://gwdg.de>> ;
To: <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> ;
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer 1874"
Message-ID: <3cbb626e-74fa-0878-3713-8ce95089b30e at gwdg.de>
<http://gwdg.de>> ;
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed

The dates of such works are not the problem. It is possible to research
them. You are right, it is additional work, but I have no problem with
it. The most important thing is a clear and stable rule.

-----
Francisco

Am 24.09.2017 um 23:21 schrieb Stephen Thorpe:
> This is precisely the sort of nomenclatural nonsense which gives taxonomy 
a bad name! For God's sake, why not just have a simple rule in the Code 
which says that illustrations published before the text are deemed to be 
published simultaneously with the text? It would save so much pointless 
work trying to determine dates. Such work has absolutely no scientific 
content or merit.
>
> Stephen
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 23/9/17, Doug Yanega <dyanega at ucr.edu> <http://ucr.edu>> ; wrote:
>
> Subject: [Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer 1874"
> To: "iczn-list" <iczn-list at afriherp.org> <http://afriherp.org>> ;, 
"taxacom" <TAXACOM at MAILMAN.NHM.KU.EDU>
> Received: Saturday, 23 September, 2017, 4:44 AM
>
> Hi. Can anyone give a definitive statement
> regarding the work linked here:
>
> http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/1221095#page/9/mode/1up
<http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/1221095#page/9/mode/1up>
>
> Here is the situation: this particular
> work, as linked here from the
> Smithsonian's copy, LOOKS like a single
> work, and the second page says
> "Juli 1875". However, if you look at
> the plates at the end, they all
> have a date at the bottom that says
> 1868. There are some names that
> appear differently in the text and
> plates, so potentially made available
> on different dates if they were *not*
> simultaneously issued. This
> potentially affects the validity of at
> least one genus name presently in
> use, so I would like to be certain I
> have the details correct.
>
> Neave, in the Nomenclator Zoologicus,
> cites names in the plates as being
> from 1868, and names in the text as
> being from 1874.
>
> References to this work in the NHM
> Catalog at
>
> http://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/data/butmoth
<http://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/data/butmoth> /
>
> cite the names appearing in the plates
> as being from 1874 and the text
> as being from 1875 (despite both being
> linked to the BHL copy which has
> them in a single work).
>
> I have not yet been able to locate any
> source that explains (1) what
> *evidence* there is that the plates and
> text were published separately,
> nor (2) how and why one of the dates is
> usually given as 1874, nor (3)
> why the dates of the presumed separate
> parts are given inconsistently by
> different sources. It also strikes me
> as odd that the work seems
> *uniformly* cited as "Felder &
> Rogenhofer" when the text rather clearly
> lists TWO Felders, Cajetan and Rudolf
> (shouldn't it then be Felder,
> Felder & Rogenhofer?).
>
> This is very confusing, to say the
> least, and I would be grateful if
> anyone can point to something that
> would help iron this out.
>
> Peace,
>
> --
> Doug Yanega      Dept.
> of Entomology      Entomology Research
> Museum
> Univ. of California, Riverside, CA
> 92521-0314    skype: dyanega
> phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer:
> opinions are mine, not UCR's)
>
>     http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html
<http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html>
>   "There are some enterprises in
> which a careful disorderliness
>         is the
> true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82
>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu> ,
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
<http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom>
> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
> searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org <http://taxacom.markmail.org>
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions
> to taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the
> Web, visit: http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
<http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom>
> You can reach the person managing the
> list at: taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
>
> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting
> Ambiguity for 30 Some Years, 1987-2017.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu> ,
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
<http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom>
> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at: 
http://taxacom.markmail.org <http://taxacom.markmail.org>
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
<http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit: 
http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
<http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom>
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner@
mailman.nhm.ku.edu <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
>
> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 30 Some Years, 1987-2017.
>


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2017 21:46:40 +0000 (UTC)
From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz> <http://yahoo.co.nz>> ;
To: <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> ;, Francisco 
Welter-Schultes
<fwelter at gwdg.de> <http://gwdg.de>> ;
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer 1874"
Message-ID: <903892266.8870067.1506289600958 at mail.yahoo.com>
<http://mail.yahoo.com>> ;
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Clear and stable is important, yes, but so is simple (and not requiring 
work for no real gain or scientific relevance). Do you really think that 
such "work" (to determine historical dates of publication of plates) is a 
good use of research funding in a world where still untold thousands of 
taxa are undescribed?

Stephen

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 25/9/17, Francisco Welter-Schultes <fwelter at gwdg.de>
<http://gwdg.de>> ; wrote:

Subject: Re: [Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer 1874"
To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Received: Monday, 25 September, 2017, 9:38 AM

The dates of such works are not
the problem. It is possible to research
them. You are right, it is additional work, but
I have no problem with
it. The most
important thing is a clear and stable rule.

-----
Francisco

Am
24.09.2017 um 23:21 schrieb Stephen Thorpe:
> This is precisely the sort of
nomenclatural nonsense which gives taxonomy a bad name! For
God's sake, why not just have a simple rule in the Code
which says that illustrations published before the text are
deemed to be published simultaneously with the text? It
would save so much pointless work trying to determine dates.
Such work has absolutely no scientific content or merit.
>
> Stephen
>
>
--------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 23/9/17, Doug Yanega <dyanega at ucr.edu> <http://ucr.edu>> ;
wrote:
>
> 
Subject: [Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer
1874"
>  To: "iczn-list"
<iczn-list at afriherp.org> <http://afriherp.org>> ;,
"taxacom" <TAXACOM at MAILMAN.NHM.KU.EDU>
>  Received: Saturday, 23 September, 2017,
4:44 AM
> 
>  Hi.
Can anyone give a definitive statement
>  regarding the work linked here:
> 
>  http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/1221095#page/9/mode/1up
<http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/1221095#page/9/mode/1up>
> 
>  Here is the
situation: this particular
>  work, as
linked here from the
> 
Smithsonian's copy, LOOKS like a single
>  work, and the second page says
>  "Juli 1875". However, if you
look at
>  the plates at the end, they
all
>  have a date at the bottom that
says
>  1868. There are some names
that
>  appear differently in the text
and
>  plates, so potentially made
available
>  on different dates if they
were *not*
>  simultaneously issued.
This
>  potentially affects the
validity of at
>  least one genus name
presently in
>  use, so I would like to
be certain I
>  have the details
correct.
> 
> 
Neave, in the Nomenclator Zoologicus,
> 
cites names in the plates as being
> 
from 1868, and names in the text as
> 
being from 1874.
> 
>  References to this work in the NHM
>  Catalog at
> 
>  http://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/data/butmoth
<http://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/data/butmoth> /
> 
>  cite the names
appearing in the plates
>  as being
from 1874 and the text
>  as being from
1875 (despite both being
>  linked to
the BHL copy which has
>  them in a
single work).
> 
>  I have not yet been able to locate
any
>  source that explains (1) what
>  *evidence* there is that the plates
and
>  text were published
separately,
>  nor (2) how and why one
of the dates is
>  usually given as
1874, nor (3)
>  why the dates of the
presumed separate
>  parts are given
inconsistently by
>  different sources.
It also strikes me
>  as odd that the
work seems
>  *uniformly* cited as
"Felder &
>  Rogenhofer"
when the text rather clearly
>  lists
TWO Felders, Cajetan and Rudolf
> 
(shouldn't it then be Felder,
> 
Felder & Rogenhofer?).
> 
>  This is very confusing, to say the
>  least, and I would be grateful if
>  anyone can point to something that
>  would help iron this out.
> 
>  Peace,
> 
>  --
>  Doug Yanega      Dept.
>  of Entomology       Entomology
Research
>  Museum
>  Univ. of California, Riverside, CA
>  92521-0314     skype: dyanega
>  phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer:
>  opinions are mine, not UCR's)
>           
> 
    http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html
<http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html>
>     "There are some enterprises
in
>  which a careful disorderliness
>           is the
>  true method" - Herman Melville,
Moby Dick, Chap. 82
> 
> 
_______________________________________________
>  Taxacom Mailing List
>  Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu> ,
>  http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
<http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom>
>  The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may
be
>  searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org <http://taxacom.markmail.org>
> 
>  Send Taxacom
mailing list submissions
>  to taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
>  To subscribe or unsubscribe via the
>  Web, visit: http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
<http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom>
>  You can reach the person managing
the
>  list at: taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> 
>  Nurturing
Nuance while Assaulting
>  Ambiguity
for 30 Some Years, 1987-2017.
> 
>
_______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu> ,
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
<http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom>
> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org <http://taxacom.markmail.org>
>
> Send Taxacom mailing
list submissions to taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web,
visit: http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
<http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom>
> You can reach the person managing the list
at: taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
>
> Nurturing Nuance
while Assaulting Ambiguity for 30 Some Years, 1987-2017.
>

_______________________________________________
Taxacom Mailing List
Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu> ,
http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
<http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom>
The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org <http://taxacom.markmail.org>

Send Taxacom mailing list
submissions to taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
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You can reach the person managing the list at:
taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu>

Nurturing Nuance while
Assaulting Ambiguity for 30 Some Years, 1987-2017.



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 01:30:57 +0200
From: Francisco Welter-Schultes <fwelter at gwdg.de> <http://gwdg.de>> ;
To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz> <http://yahoo.co.nz>> ;,
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> ;
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer 1874"
Message-ID: <fde20312-7169-90f7-78de-cb83fc1f7469 at gwdg.de>
<http://gwdg.de>> ;
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed

As I said, I have no problem with it. Usually the dates are researched.
The problem is that it is difficult to find out where the dates have
been published. We have a typical case here. The problem is how to
connect such information.
I have done such researches on dates myself, and did not have the
feeling you describe. I could have described more taxa, but in this
epoch I just liked to do some library work and research some dates.
Working with such old works is interesting because as a scientist you
can learn a lot.
Changing the rules, as you suggest, would distort a well established
system, and this would be much worse. We would have to revise the dates
of many thousand names, and also change names of species because of
changing precedences within species. This would threaten stability.

-----
Francisco

Am 24.09.2017 um 23:46 schrieb Stephen Thorpe:
> Clear and stable is important, yes, but so is simple (and not requiring 
work for no real gain or scientific relevance). Do you really think that 
such "work" (to determine historical dates of publication of plates) is a 
good use of research funding in a world where still untold thousands of 
taxa are undescribed?
>
> Stephen
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 25/9/17, Francisco Welter-Schultes <fwelter at gwdg.de>
<http://gwdg.de>> ; wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer 1874"
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Received: Monday, 25 September, 2017, 9:38 AM
>
> The dates of such works are not
> the problem. It is possible to research
> them. You are right, it is additional work, but
> I have no problem with
> it. The most
> important thing is a clear and stable rule.
>
> -----
> Francisco
>
> Am
> 24.09.2017 um 23:21 schrieb Stephen Thorpe:
> > This is precisely the sort of
> nomenclatural nonsense which gives taxonomy a bad name! For
> God's sake, why not just have a simple rule in the Code
> which says that illustrations published before the text are
> deemed to be published simultaneously with the text? It
> would save so much pointless work trying to determine dates.
> Such work has absolutely no scientific content or merit.
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------
> > On Sat, 23/9/17, Doug Yanega <dyanega at ucr.edu> <http://ucr.edu>> ;
> wrote:
> >
> >
> Subject: [Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer
> 1874"
> >  To: "iczn-list"
> <iczn-list at afriherp.org> <http://afriherp.org>> ;,
> "taxacom" <TAXACOM at MAILMAN.NHM.KU.EDU>
> >  Received: Saturday, 23 September, 2017,
> 4:44 AM
> >
> >  Hi.
> Can anyone give a definitive statement
> >  regarding the work linked here:
> >
>http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/1221095#page/9/mode/1up
<http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/1221095#page/9/mode/1up>
> >
> >  Here is the
> situation: this particular
> >  work, as
> linked here from the
> >
> Smithsonian's copy, LOOKS like a single
> >  work, and the second page says
> >  "Juli 1875". However, if you
> look at
> >  the plates at the end, they
> all
> >  have a date at the bottom that
> says
> >  1868. There are some names
> that
> >  appear differently in the text
> and
> >  plates, so potentially made
> available
> >  on different dates if they
> were *not*
> >  simultaneously issued.
> This
> >  potentially affects the
> validity of at
> >  least one genus name
> presently in
> >  use, so I would like to
> be certain I
> >  have the details
> correct.
> >
> >
> Neave, in the Nomenclator Zoologicus,
> >
> cites names in the plates as being
> >
> from 1868, and names in the text as
> >
> being from 1874.
> >
> >  References to this work in the NHM
> >  Catalog at
> >
>http://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/data/butmoth
<http://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/data/butmoth> /
> >
> >  cite the names
> appearing in the plates
> >  as being
> from 1874 and the text
> >  as being from
> 1875 (despite both being
> >  linked to
> the BHL copy which has
> >  them in a
> single work).
> >
> >  I have not yet been able to locate
> any
> >  source that explains (1) what
> >  *evidence* there is that the plates
> and
> >  text were published
> separately,
> >  nor (2) how and why one
> of the dates is
> >  usually given as
> 1874, nor (3)
> >  why the dates of the
> presumed separate
> >  parts are given
> inconsistently by
> >  different sources.
> It also strikes me
> >  as odd that the
> work seems
> >  *uniformly* cited as
> "Felder &
> >  Rogenhofer"
> when the text rather clearly
> >  lists
> TWO Felders, Cajetan and Rudolf
> >
> (shouldn't it then be Felder,
> >
> Felder & Rogenhofer?).
> >
> >  This is very confusing, to say the
> >  least, and I would be grateful if
> >  anyone can point to something that
> >  would help iron this out.
> >
> >  Peace,
> >
> >  --
> >  Doug Yanega      Dept.
> >  of Entomology       Entomology
> Research
> >  Museum
> >  Univ. of California, Riverside, CA
> >  92521-0314     skype: dyanega
> >  phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer:
> >  opinions are mine, not UCR's)
> >
> >
>     http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html
<http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html>
> >     "There are some enterprises
> in
> >  which a careful disorderliness
> >           is the
> >  true method" - Herman Melville,
> Moby Dick, Chap. 82
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> >  Taxacom Mailing List
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> >
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> >
> >  Nurturing
> Nuance while Assaulting
> >  Ambiguity
> for 30 Some Years, 1987-2017.
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> >
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> >
> > Nurturing Nuance
> while Assaulting Ambiguity for 30 Some Years, 1987-2017.
> >
>
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>
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>
> Nurturing Nuance while
> Assaulting Ambiguity for 30 Some Years, 1987-2017.
>
> .
>


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2017 23:40:46 +0000 (UTC)
From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz> <http://yahoo.co.nz>> ;
To: <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> ;, Francisco 
Welter-Schultes
<fwelter at gwdg.de> <http://gwdg.de>> ;
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer 1874"
Message-ID: <194405587.8923161.1506296446778 at mail.yahoo.com>
<http://mail.yahoo.com>> ;
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

I disagree. There are only a handful of cases (at least in entomology) 
where anyone has bothered to notice that the plates might predate the text 
of a work. So, they then change all the names (to the new priority dates), 
and this threatens stability!

Stephen

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 25/9/17, Francisco Welter-Schultes <fwelter at gwdg.de>
<http://gwdg.de>> ; wrote:

Subject: Re: [Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer 1874"
To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz> <http://yahoo.co.nz>> ;, 
taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Received: Monday, 25 September, 2017, 12:30 PM

As I said, I have no problem with
it. Usually the dates are researched.
The
problem is that it is difficult to find out where the dates
have
been published. We have a typical case
here. The problem is how to
connect such
information.
I have done such researches on
dates myself, and did not have the
feeling
you describe. I could have described more taxa, but in this

epoch I just liked to do some library work
and research some dates.
Working with such
old works is interesting because as a scientist you
can learn a lot.
Changing the
rules, as you suggest, would distort a well established
system, and this would be much worse. We would
have to revise the dates
of many thousand
names, and also change names of species because of
changing precedences within species. This would
threaten stability.

-----
Francisco

Am 24.09.2017 um 23:46 schrieb Stephen
Thorpe:
> Clear and stable is important,
yes, but so is simple (and not requiring work for no real
gain or scientific relevance). Do you really think that such
"work" (to determine historical dates of
publication of plates) is a good use of research funding in
a world where still untold thousands of taxa are
undescribed?
>
>
Stephen
>
>
--------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 25/9/17, Francisco Welter-Schultes
<fwelter at gwdg.de> <http://gwdg.de>> ;
wrote:
>
> 
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer
1874"
>  To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
>  Received: Monday, 25 September, 2017,
9:38 AM
> 
>  The
dates of such works are not
>  the
problem. It is possible to research
> 
them. You are right, it is additional work, but
>  I have no problem with
>  it. The most
> 
important thing is a clear and stable rule.
> 
>  -----
>  Francisco
> 
>  Am
>  24.09.2017
um 23:21 schrieb Stephen Thorpe:
> 
> This is precisely the sort of
> 
nomenclatural nonsense which gives taxonomy a bad name!
For
>  God's sake, why not just
have a simple rule in the Code
>  which
says that illustrations published before the text are
>  deemed to be published simultaneously
with the text? It
>  would save so much
pointless work trying to determine dates.
>  Such work has absolutely no scientific
content or merit.
>  >
>  > Stephen
> 
>
>  >
> 
--------------------------------------------
>  > On Sat, 23/9/17, Doug Yanega
<dyanega at ucr.edu> <http://ucr.edu>> ;
>  wrote:
>  >
>  >
>  Subject:
[Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer
>  1874"
> 
>   To: "iczn-list"
> 
<iczn-list at afriherp.org> <http://afriherp.org>> ;,
>  "taxacom" <TAXACOM at MAILMAN.NHM.KU.EDU>
>  >   Received: Saturday, 23
September, 2017,
>  4:44 AM
>  >
>  >  
Hi.
>  Can anyone give a definitive
statement
>  >   regarding the
work linked here:
>  >
>  >   http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/1221095#page/9/mode/1up
<http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/1221095#page/9/mode/1up>
>  >
>  >  
Here is the
>  situation: this
particular
>  >   work, as
>  linked here from the
>  >
> 
Smithsonian's copy, LOOKS like a single
>  >   work, and the second page
says
>  >   "Juli 1875".
However, if you
>  look at
>  >   the plates at the end, they
>  all
>  >  
have a date at the bottom that
> 
says
>  >   1868. There are some
names
>  that
> 
>   appear differently in the text
>  and
>  >  
plates, so potentially made
> 
available
>  >   on different
dates if they
>  were *not*
>  >   simultaneously issued.
>  This
>  >  
potentially affects the
>  validity of
at
>  >   least one genus name
>  presently in
> 
>   use, so I would like to
>  be
certain I
>  >   have the
details
>  correct.
>  >
>  >
>  Neave, in the Nomenclator
Zoologicus,
>  >
>    cites names in the plates as being
>  >
>  from 1868,
and names in the text as
>  >
>  being from 1874.
> 
>
>  >   References to this
work in the NHM
>  >   Catalog
at
>  >
> 
>   http://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/data/butmoth
<http://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/data/butmoth> /
>  >
>  >  
cite the names
>  appearing in the
plates
>  >   as being
>  from 1874 and the text
>  >   as being from
>  1875 (despite both being
>  >   linked to
>  the BHL copy which has
>  >   them in a
>  single work).
> 
>
>  >   I have not yet been
able to locate
>  any
>  >   source that explains (1)
what
>  >   *evidence* there is
that the plates
>  and
>  >   text were published
>  separately,
> 
>   nor (2) how and why one
>  of
the dates is
>  >   usually given
as
>  1874, nor (3)
>  >   why the dates of the
>  presumed separate
>  >   parts are given
>  inconsistently by
>  >   different sources.
>  It also strikes me
>  >   as odd that the
>  work seems
> 
>   *uniformly* cited as
> 
"Felder &
>  >  
Rogenhofer"
>  when the text
rather clearly
>  >   lists
>  TWO Felders, Cajetan and Rudolf
>  >
> 
(shouldn't it then be Felder,
> 
>
>  Felder & Rogenhofer?).
>  >
>  >  
This is very confusing, to say the
> 
>   least, and I would be grateful if
>  >   anyone can point to something
that
>  >   would help iron this
out.
>  >
> 
>   Peace,
>  >
>  >   --
> 
>   Doug Yanega      Dept.
> 
>   of Entomology       Entomology
>  Research
> 
>   Museum
>  >   Univ. of
California, Riverside, CA
>  >  
92521-0314     skype: dyanega
> 
>   phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer:
>  >   opinions are mine, not
UCR's)
>  >
>  >
>      http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html
<http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html>
>  >      "There are some
enterprises
>  in
>  >   which a careful
disorderliness
>  >        
   is the
>  >   true
method" - Herman Melville,
>  Moby
Dick, Chap. 82
>  >
>  >
> 
_______________________________________________
>  >   Taxacom Mailing List
>  >   Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu> ,
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<http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom>
>  >   The Taxacom Archive back to
1992 may
>  be
> 
>   searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org <http://taxacom.markmail.org>
>  >
>  >  
Send Taxacom
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>  the
> 
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>  >
>  >  
Nurturing
>  Nuance while Assaulting
>  >   Ambiguity
>  for 30 Some Years, 1987-2017.
>  >
>  >
> 
_______________________________________________
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<http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom>
>  > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992
may be
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Taxacom mailing
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>  >
Nurturing Nuance
>  while Assaulting
Ambiguity for 30 Some Years, 1987-2017.
>  >
> 
> 
_______________________________________________
>  Taxacom Mailing List
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> 
>  Nurturing
Nuance while
>  Assaulting Ambiguity
for 30 Some Years, 1987-2017.
> 
> .
>



------------------------------

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------------------------------

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