[Taxacom] Insects are crustacean descendants vs. "insects ARE crustaceans"

Richard Zander Richard.Zander at mobot.org
Sat Feb 10 13:16:20 CST 2018


Pattern Cladist:

And I can't really believe that cladistics has retained hegemony over systematics for 30 years. It's just a neat form of cluster analysis.  The dichotomous cladogram, however, does not model evolution, and most cladists will agree with that. 

" of three groups, which two are more closely related to each other than either is to the third is the task at hand." 

Well, distance between two groups has to go through a node. A node to a phylogeneticist is an unnamed hypothetical shared ancestor. A node to a cladist is characterized by a set of traits common (excepting reversals) to all distal groups. I think cladistic or phylogenetic distance is unreliable for that reason.

" Notions of evolution, ancestry, origins, etc., lie outside the realm of cladistics (and systematics), though a cladistic framework is the appropriate one for examining those issues." Aha. See my paper on structuralism for cogent philosophical rebuttal:
 
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273113643_Structuralism_in_Phylogenetic_Systematics 

Reasoning Macroevolutionist


-------
Richard H. Zander
Missouri Botanical Garden – 4344 Shaw Blvd. – St. Louis – Missouri – 63110 – USA
richard.zander at mobot.org 
Web sites: http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/bfna/bfnamenu.htm and http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/ 

-----Original Message-----
From: Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Gill
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 3:42 AM
To: Frederick W. Schueler
Cc: TAXACOM
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Insects are crustacean descendants vs. "insects ARE crustaceans"

Dear God, I really can't believe some of the discussions that go on sometimes in TAXACOM. John nailed it in saying that cladistics is about the relationships. The business of naming is not a cladistic decision, aside from satisfying monophyly. It is not necessary to name every node, nor does Cladistics make any judgement about priority of names. Some, such as Gary Nelson, have advised that birds as dinosaurs is about as advisable as vertebrates are invertebrates and Greeks are Barbarians (and each carries the notion that one group evolved from some ill-defined non-group). The point is that groups defined by their non-ness (dinosaurs as non-bird whatevers, etc.) is futile. Dinosaurs only exist in the vernacular. Some things called dinosaurs are more closely related to birds, others more distantly related. The job of cladistics is in understanding the relationships. As John put it, of three groups, which two are more closely related to each other than either is to the third is the task at hand.
Notions of evolution, ancestry, origins, etc., lie outside the realm of cladistics (and systematics), though a cladistic framework is the appropriate one for examining those issues.

Signed,

A Pattern Cladist..

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:44 PM, Frederick W. Schueler <bckcdb at istar.ca>
wrote:

> On 2/9/2018 11:53 PM, Stephen Thorpe wrote:
>
> I think the cladist mind thinks that a taxon includes all its 
> decendants,
>> so whatever name applies to the taxon also applies to all its decendants.
>> So, tetrapods are Sarcopterygia/sarcopterygians. Sort of makes sense.
>> Tetrapods are also animals, eukaryotes, etc.
>>
>
> * it's not necessarily the "cladist mind" thinks that a taxon includes 
> all its descendants, but the mind which recognizes monophyletic taxa 
> as individuals rather than classes, a la Ghiselin. Perhaps the 
> philosophical objection to paraphyletic taxa is that they are classes 
> rather than individuals?
>
> fred.
> --------------------------------------------
> p.s. and the subtheme that the English names of all monophyletic taxa 
> are proper nouns and are to be capitalized - 
> http://pinicola.ca/m1999b.htm
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
>> On Sat, 10/2/18, Kenneth Kinman<kinman at hotmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>
>   The present discussion about paraphyly reminds me of strict
>>   cladists insisting that "birds ARE dinosaurs",
>>   rather than "birds are dinosaur descendants".
>>
>
> fred.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>          Frederick W. Schueler & Aleta Karstad
>          Fragile Inheritance Natural History Mudpuppy Night in Oxford 
> Mills - http://pinicola.ca/mudpup1.htm 'Daily' Paintings - 
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--
Dr Anthony C. Gill
Natural History Curator
A12 Macleay Museum
University of Sydney
NSW 2006
Australia.

Ph. +61 02 9036 6499
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