[Taxacom] Forcing ORCID on researchers

Michael A. Ivie mivie at montana.edu
Mon Dec 7 13:20:06 CST 2020


Hmm, is for-profit automatically immoral/unethical?  I lost some of the 
thread there.


>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> On Behalf Of Carlos
>> Alberto Martínez Muñoz via Taxacom
>> Sent: Monday, December 7, 2020 8:31 AM
>> To: Roger Hyam <RHyam at rbge.org.uk>
>> Cc: Taxa com <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Forcing ORCID on researchers
>>
>> What all this thread has confirmed is how easily the smartest people on
>> the planet can miss the ethical implications of their choices. Leaves
>> little hope for those of use that are not so smart.
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
>> Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
>> FI-20014 University of Turku
>> Finland
>> Myriatrix <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmyriatrix.myspecies.info%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C1%7C637429611286474967%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=4Or6HiVGDda%2B4NHQyIP5Abn%2B8tp5DkF6I3fwS5%2BMSUw%3D&reserved=0>
>> ResearchGate profile
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FCarlos_Martinez-Munoz&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637429611286474967%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=BlKrOoHSAMK3qUBLxqWydmo6%2BBcqAaaG97jw2JDg3vI%3D&reserved=0>
>> Myriapod Morphology and Evolution
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fgroups%2F205802113162102%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637429611286474967%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=ZvzyO%2Bg6NxE1%2Frp4TbS4BKf2%2BwY881B6SH7Q9ZpY3fw%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> El lun, 7 dic 2020 a las 17:23, Roger Hyam (<RHyam at rbge.org.uk>) escribió:
>>
>>> Well folks I’m building a botanical system that requires an ORCID to
>>> login and all this thread has done is confirm I’ve made the right
>> decision.
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Roger
>>>
>>> On 7 Dec 2020, at 14:38, Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz <
>>> biotemail at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Wouter,
>>> The ORCID initiative is not-for-profit, but the implementation is not.
>>> ORCID has for-profit members paying membership fees and then 1)
>>> building for-profit tools on top of ORCID IDs and 2) making ORCID IDs
>>> mandatory in journals. Those tools and journals are then sold back to
>>> public institutions, priced with profit margins of up to 37%, higher
>>> than the profit margins of oil companies. That is why it is so
>>> counterproductive, expensive and unfair to turn anything into a
>>> standard when the full not-for-profit implementation cycle is far from
>>> existing. In an ideal world, the full implementation cycle, with ORCID
>>> expenses, tools and journals would be not-for-profit. Then I would
>>> have no ethical problem in getting an ORCID.
>>> Forceful adoption happens when the institutions buying a tool get an
>>> ORCID-based added service in a pricing bundle that they cannot refuse
>>> unless they refuse the whole package. Forceful adoption happens when
>>> all or most of the journals where one can publish in demand an ORCID.
>>> If you cannot see that using and promoting ORCID is not ethically
>>> neutral, then you should stop doing both things.
>>>
>>> By the way, I don't expect you to easily find the footprints of
>>> Elsevier, Nature Publishing and Thomson Reuters in nowadays ORCID. You
>>> will have to look deeper into the past, even before ORCID was founded.
>>> Have fun with your reading!
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
>>> Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
>>> FI-20014 University of Turku
>>> Finland
>>> Myriatrix
>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmyri
>>> atrix.myspecies.info%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk%7C42a501606
>>> f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C6
>>> 37429487178399690%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoi
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>>> B9DBtxE%2FgaQUUTsFU%2FjVjunxhMM%3D&reserved=0>
>>> ResearchGate profile
>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww
>>> .researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FCarlos_Martinez-Munoz&data=04%7C01%7CRHy
>>> am%40rbge.org.uk%7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7
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>>> erved=0>
>>> Myriapod Morphology and Evolution
>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww
>>> .facebook.com%2Fgroups%2F205802113162102%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbg
>>> e.org.uk%7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74
>>> 158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178409688%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoi
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> El lun, 7 dic 2020 a las 16:19, Wouter Addink
>>> (<wouter.addink at naturalis.nl>)
>>> escribió:
>>>
>>>> Hi Carlos,
>>>> I did not say that orcid ids do not cost money, I said they do not
>>>> cost you as a researcher money. Every persistent identifier system
>> costs money.
>>>> I am no financial expert, but their tax statements are online and it
>>>> looks to me like the main income is from membership fees, orcid has
>>>> over
>>>> 1000 members. Most of them probably universities. There is income
>>>> from grants and sponsorship too and elsevier is one of 17 platinum
>> sponsors.
>>>> Most of these sponsorships are only foundational loans though.
>>>> Springer and Plos are in the board, I do not see Elsevier there, but
>>>> I think publishers should as stakeholders be part of the board (but
>>>> not majority). According to orcid bylaws the board is required to
>>>> have a majority of individuals from non-profit members and the board
>>>> always includes 2 elected researchers. So I see nothing in the
>>>> funding or governance model that worries me and I see no evidence of a
>> major role from elsevier either.
>>>> Kind regards
>>>> Wouter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Op ma 7 dec. 2020 14:23 schreef Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz <
>>>> biotemail at gmail.com>:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Rod,
>>>>> "*Rather, I think the main drivers come from the publishing
>>>>> industry, funders, and academia, who see value in being able to
>>>>> identify people, and hence accurately measure their academic
>>>>> contributions (be it authoring, reviewing, getting grants, etc.).*"
>>>>> I agree about the main drivers and I will comment on this. To save
>>>>> me some time, please introduce to this list the ORCID funding model,
>>>>> with the history of early funders and today's main funders. That's
>>>>> where we should start.
>>>>>
>>>>> "You mention “personal freedom”, it’s not clear to me how your
>>>>> freedom is affected by having an ORCID. Is it the ORCID you object
>>>>> to, or the notion of having an identifier at all?" My freedom
>>>>> includes the freedom to choose having an identifier or not, and my
>>>>> freedom includes which identifiers from all those available I am
>>>>> going to choose. My English is not good, but I expected that it was
>>>>> enough to convey those ideas. An increasing number of journals are
>>>>> forcing researchers to have identifiers, and to specifically have
>>>>> ORCID. It is pretty significant when megajournals or publishers do
>>>>> that. As the snowball effect increases, we are left with the option
>>>>> of having an identifier (and only ORCID!) or not having it and not
>>>>> publishing anymore. In this context, preservation of freedom means
>>>>> to recommend good practices and to have the technical capability of
>>>>> implementing them, but freedom is not preserved by forcing adoption
>>>>> of a practice which is not essential to the scientific content of the
>> publications.
>>>>> Dear Roger,
>>>>> "*for example, Research Gate (which you rate so highly as to have in
>>>>> your email signature)*". Having a platform in an email signature
>>>>> does not mean that there is endorsement to that platform. That is
>>>>> your personal interpretation. I was free to choose whether to have
>>>>> RG or not, and even more, I also could choose and have an Academia
>>>>> profile as well. No journal has demanded me to get any of those
>>>>> accounts. Moreover, I previously had a Publons account in my email
>>>>> signature. After Publons was bought by Clarivate Analytics, I
>>>>> deleted my Publons account and demanded Clarivate to wipe off all my
>> data.
>>>>> Dear Wouter,
>>>>> About the freedom of choice, see the snowball effect above. About
>>>>> the ORCID not costing money, you are very naive if you believe that.
>>>>> Don't you think that I haven't noticed Elsevier's long tentacles
>>>>> behind ORCID, and don't you think that I haven't noticed how they
>>>>> squeeze money from whole countries by implementing ORCID into their
>>>>> service package bundle, including Pure. I believe that I don't need
>>>>> to remind anyone here that Elsevier makes more profit than oil
>>>>> companies and that it is well-known for its abusive pricing and
>>>>> bullying behavior. We are all paying for ORCID, and we pay two
>>>>> times. First, we pay with our work, manually curating and linking
>>>>> our research to us, data which publishers happily collect. Then, we
>>>>> pay a second time, when publishers squeeze the cost of ORCID
>>>>> implementation out of us, and with astonishing profits. I am not going
>> to be one more researcher supporting Elsevier's statistics. Thank you!
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
>>>>> Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
>>>>> FI-20014 University of Turku
>>>>> Finland
>>>>> Myriatrix
>>>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmy
>>>>> riatrix.myspecies.info%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk%7C42a50
>>>>> 1606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7
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>>>>> B3dEXEmqREe5CJXjuqas%2FblUBjA4EK9nmIQ%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>> ResearchGate profile
>>>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fw
>>>>> ww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FCarlos_Martinez-Munoz&data=04%7C01%7
>>>>> CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk%7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb0017
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>>>>> Myriapod Morphology and Evolution
>>>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fw
>>>>> ww.facebook.com%2Fgroups%2F205802113162102%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%4
>>>>> 0rbge.org.uk%7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7
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>>>>> erved=0>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> El lun, 7 dic 2020 a las 14:38, Roderic Page (<
>>>>> Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>) escribió:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Carlos,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just to unpack this a little, ORCID isn’t anything to do with
>>>>>> biodiversity informatics as such, its scope is all academic
>>>>>> publishing. You will see the requirement for an ORCID appearing in
>>>>>> many journals, not just Zootaxa. See for example
>>>>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2Fcontent%2Frequiring-orcid-publication-workflows-ope&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637429611286474967%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=DIEFNMza9KW4bK5HvKDbAtlXfDxZPP%2F8vC%2B3PCyz1Qo%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>> n-letter
>>>>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2F
>>>>>> orcid.org
>> %2Fcontent%2Frequiring-orcid-publication-workflows-open-letter&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%
>> 40rbge.org.uk%7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178429673%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=CoLrp%2BUeMeSkRvxLgW5m99uRUcPjqxWdVC4yWu85dUw%3D&reserved=0>
>> So I think this is an inevitable trend no matter where you chose to publish.
>>>>>> You mention “personal freedom”, it’s not clear to me how your
>>>>>> freedom is affected by having an ORCID. Is it the ORCID you object
>>>>>> to, or the notion of having an identifier at all?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just to be clear, I’m genuinely interested in how people view
>>>>>> ORCIDs (and other identifiers). And I think that the reason ORCIDs
>>>>>> exist is not primarily for the benefit of individual researchers,
>>>>>> although one could argue that it is useful to be able to clearly
>>>>>> identify yourself to avoid being conflated with another researcher,
>>>>>> and having your academic CV automatically generated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rather, I think the main drivers come from the publishing industry,
>>>>>> funders, and academia, who see value in being able to identify
>>>>>> people, and hence accurately measure their academic contributions
>>>>>> (be it authoring, reviewing, getting grants, etc.). People like me
>>>>>> who work in trying to link data together tend to view ORCIDs
>>>>>> positively (sorting out the mess of people names in databases will
>>>>>> be much easier if everyone had - and used - an ORCID). I appreciate
>> that not everyone sees them this way.
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rod
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7 Dec 2020, at 11:58, Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz <
>>>>>> biotemail at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Rod,
>>>>>> There have been many irregularities in expanding ORCID and getting
>>>>>> it adopted. Some have been discussed here, some I have seen myself.
>>>>>> I have no time to discuss them all here. In the spotlight, there is
>>>>>> this paragraph by Wouter Addink, which was really deplorable and
>>>>>> which, at least for me, closed ORCID as an option:
>>>>>> "*I am also amazed to see though, that there are still many authors
>>>>>> not using their ORCID iD in OA publications or maintain their ORCID
>>>>>> iD without any public information about their publications. I think
>>>>>> there might even still be researchers who do not have an ORCID iD,
>>>>>> although I don't know any.*" Well, Wouter, hello there!
>>>>>> Down to the core, Rod: This is a matter of personal freedom.
>>>>>> Whoever forces an ID on researchers misses that. And whoever forces
>>>>>> ONE ID above all others misses that two times. There is more in
>>>>>> this world than the narrow field of biodiversity informatics.
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
>>>>>> Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
>>>>>> FI-20014 University of Turku
>>>>>> Finland
>>>>>> Myriatrix
>>>>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fm
>>>>>> yriatrix.myspecies.info%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk%7C42a
>>>>>> 501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C
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>>>>>> ResearchGate profile
>>>>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2F
>>>>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637429611286474967%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HLTDU58aPzm%2BhogM02V8JizKvRS0sEH5yQIs3iYIPK0%3D&reserved=0%2Fprofile%2FCarlos_Martinez-Munoz&data=04%7C01
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>>>>>> wx8ec%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>>> Myriapod Morphology and Evolution
>>>>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2F
>>>>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637429611286484957%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=luh%2FjbYX9Klek4%2BfG%2BeeiJQyW28YscjfCDuKaOtPW1s%3D&reserved=0%2Fgroups%2F205802113162102%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam
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>>>>>> erved=0>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> El lun, 7 dic 2020 a las 13:41, Roderic Page (<
>>>>>> Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>) escribió:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Carlos,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I’m curious as to why you object to getting an ORCID? Is it an
>>>>>>> objection to identifier sin general, or ORCID in particular?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rod
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 7 Dec 2020, at 11:36, Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz via Taxacom
>>>>>>> < taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Taxacomers,
>>>>>>> I have been informed today by a co-author that Zootaxa has decided
>>>>>>> to be strict and to enforce ORCID for all authors.
>>>>>>> For all you journal editors and owners in this list: You are not
>>>>>>> welcome to force an identifier on researchers, and even less to
>>>>>>> force ONE identifier above all others, without alternatives. Also,
>>>>>>> it is useless. You might force researchers to have an ID at the
>>>>>>> time of publication, but you cannot force researchers to keep it.
>>>>>>> I will make sure that my ORCID gets wiped off after publication.
>>>>>>> And every time you force me to get one, the same will happen
>>>>>>> again. As the platform says, getting an ORCID just takes a minute.
>>>>>>> Anthony Gill previously wrote: "My take is ORCID can take a flying
>>>>>>> jump at itself." Couldn't agree more.
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
>>>>>>> Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
>>>>>>> FI-20014 University of Turku
>>>>>>> Finland
>>>>>>> Myriatrix <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmyriatrix.myspecies.info%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C1%7C637429611286484957%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=I36l7y4Hj7A834cx58fIAocv%2B%2B9gneJ72h8yXqkfBLI%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
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>>>>>>> ResearchGate profile
>>>>>>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FCarlos_Martinez-Munoz&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637429611286484957%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=e3Gwd%2FJvD8ELVgnwG059EWC9UeEw7aECFHswKvR3sIg%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%252
>>>>>>> Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FCarlos_Martinez-Munoz&data=04%7C
>>>>>>> 01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk%7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63
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>>>>>>> Myriapod Morphology and Evolution
>>>>>>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fgroups%2F205802113162102%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637429611286484957%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=6CkJRmY8Z5jxPi8N%2BOVJqxisDNQ960jlNs994OlVmIE%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%252
>>>>>>> Fwww.facebook.com%2Fgroups%2F205802113162102%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHy
>>>>>>> am%40rbge.org.uk%7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e
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>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Taxacom Mailing List
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to:
>>>>>>> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu For list information; to subscribe or
>> unsubscribe, visit:
>>>>>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.nhm.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637429611286484957%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=IfHbwbQkT6QI60YoAz55TI%2F9k6%2FRx47jcHVnzwGuXUg%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
>>>>>>> mailman.nhm.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=0
>>>>>>> 4%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk%7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7C
>>>>>>> bb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178459658%7CUn
>>>>>>> known%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik
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>>>>>>> Purqr3zAShrAA%3D&reserved=0> You can reach the person managing the
>>>>>>> list at:
>>>>>>> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>>>>>>> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
>>>>>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637429611286484957%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HTrhyQRwAHVCl4%2BurGhaNQO2dJi0LpufRWRtX1b9hk0%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
>>>>>>> taxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk%7C42a50
>>>>>>> 1606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0
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>>>>>>> tKhndeYGo5FEZzxD70Nr4AcWozdNWmRdbeuwEoGD8%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years,
>>>>>>> 1987-2020.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Roderic Page
>>>>>>> Professor of Taxonomy
>>>>>>> Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative Medicine
>>>>>>> College of Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences Graham Kerr
>>>>>>> Building University of Glasgow Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Email:  Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk
>>>>>>> Tel:  +44 141 330 4778
>>>>>>> Skype:  rdmpage
>>>>>>> Facebook:  https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Frdmpage&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637429611286494951%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=PKJrPdd4Tq3TxFTJBk3kzdNKDje57Rm0QxJJtJF3EGg%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
>>>>>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637429611286494951%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=6uO3j5LfP1uWCOxjJ6nhgZq2Hvcd6PlLNhQ%2Bx44sorM%3D&reserved=0%2Frdmpage&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk%7C42
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>>>>>>> LinkedIn:  https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fuk.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Frdmpage&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637429611286494951%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=wfroLlEWvDABIG1OWikaMhdlqEl8Bvgai%2FgUbiwAg%2Bs%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%252
>>>>>>> Fuk.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Frdmpage&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
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>>>>>>> Twitter:  https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Frdmpage&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637429611286494951%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=%2FkHVt%2BywPOAxWyi84LCvmiD3no4mc4yrhQoUKAnnIOY%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%252
>>>>>>> Ftwitter.com%2Frdmpage&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk%7C42a501
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>>>>>>> Blog:  https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fiphylo.blogspot.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C1%7C637429611286494951%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=a7AqKoximA3hkmXIjQeV28Kwft%2BZ71cMKWrAa8t9uio%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%252
>>>>>>> Fiphylo.blogspot.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk%7C42a50
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>>>>>>> ORCID:  https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0002-7101-9767&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637429611286494951%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=CFfAV5BA%2FBjig0gB6%2BZYUVsSsao1kwOX49gouxYOqRs%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%252
>>>>>>> Forcid.org%2F0000-0002-7101-9767&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.u
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>>>>>>> ed=0>
>>>>>>> Citations:
>>>>>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.co.uk%2Fcitations%3Fhl%3Den%26user%3D4Z5WABAAAAAJ&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637429611286504946%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=1rCqBLyOS03I18pkRR3cyHuIE4827YO14hZlcYggfPk%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%252
>>>>>>> Fscholar.google.co.uk%2Fcitations%3Fhl%3Den%26user%3D4Z5WABAAAAAJ&
>>>>>>> data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk%7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc
>>>>>>> 7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C63742948717849963
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>>>>>>> tccVqAMOcn8nkJDW4%3D&reserved=0> ResearchGate
>>>>>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FRoderic_Page&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637429611286504946%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=D5jJebmjvsUJ3vNtiqI668CnrycLafU%2BeIY0KMV5x1A%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%252
>>>>>>> Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FRoderic_Page&data=04%7C01%7CRHya
>>>>>>> m%40rbge.org.uk%7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e4
>>>>>>> 6b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178499632%7CUnknown%7CTWFpb
>>>>>>> GZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI
>>>>>>> 6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=SSf320cigrMEKqpi1l3KWy0FpG8SWNKBVFk99hGrJbw%3
>>>>>>> D&reserved=0>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>> The Royal Botanic Garden Edinburgh <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbge.org.uk%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637429611286504946%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=7yIvGF%2Fb9PFUhI5jHvP0s7thQNkqDceNGLOlNGGretk%3D&reserved=0> is a
>>> charity registered in Scotland (No SC007983) | Support Us
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>>>
>>> This notice applies to this email and to any other email subsequently
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>> _______________________________________________
>> Taxacom Mailing List
>>
>> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu For
>> list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.nhm.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637429611286504946%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=vCSZaBVE2L0Ltg%2BrQymQvMKKdpMXQBlF%2FK6Y2BxHILI%3D&reserved=0
>> You can reach the person managing the list at:
>> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu The Taxacom email archive back to 1992
>> can be searched at: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637429611286504946%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=eCqYayoq3zvUVNTP6iBlOxwDL5%2FuVVlo2CLLbWmM4ic%3D&reserved=0
>>
>> Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years, 1987-2020.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Taxacom Mailing List
>>
>> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.nhm.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637429611286504946%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=vCSZaBVE2L0Ltg%2BrQymQvMKKdpMXQBlF%2FK6Y2BxHILI%3D&reserved=0
>> You can reach the person managing the list at:
>> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Cce58619e4536410f018d08d89ada99f8%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637429611286504946%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=eCqYayoq3zvUVNTP6iBlOxwDL5%2FuVVlo2CLLbWmM4ic%3D&reserved=0
>>
>> Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years, 1987-2020.
>>
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> Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years, 1987-2020.

-- 
__________________________________________________

Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.

NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers

US Post Office Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
PO Box 173145
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59717
USA

UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
1911 West Lincoln Street
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59718
USA


(406) 994-4610 (voice)
(406) 994-6029 (FAX)
mivie at montana.edu



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