[Taxacom] Forcing ORCID on researchers

Richard Pyle deepreef at bishopmuseum.org
Mon Dec 7 13:48:05 CST 2020


Just to be clear about my post below:  I am NOT trying to be snarky or sarcastic.  Like Rod and Roger and others, I genuinely want to understand why this particular assault on personal freedom (i.e., requirement of ORCID for authorship in some journal) is any different from the numerous other such infringements we endure in order to improve the common good of science and information accessibility (peer review being another example, as is attaining a Masters or PhD degree to apply for funding or certain job positions, and many dozens of other examples). I'm likewise curious to know whether the problem is with ORCIDs in particular, or unique identifiers in general.

Aloha,
Rich

Richard L. Pyle, PhD
Senior Curator of Ichthyology | Director of XCoRE
Bernice Pauahi Bishop Museum
1525 Bernice Street, Honolulu, HI 96817-2704
Office: (808) 848-4115;  Fax: (808) 847-8252
eMail: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org
BishopMuseum.org
Our Mission: Bishop Museum inspires our community and visitors through the exploration and celebration of the extraordinary history, culture, and environment of Hawaiʻi and the Pacific.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Pyle <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>
> Sent: Monday, December 7, 2020 9:38 AM
> To: 'Taxacom' <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Forcing ORCID on researchers
> 
> For those who have problems/issues with ORCID identifiers, do you have the
> same problem with GenBank identifiers as well?  Many journals require
> GenBank identifiers for DNA sequences, so I'm not entirely clear on what the
> difference is.  Perhaps it's because identifiers assigned to people are less
> comfortable to some than identifiers assigned to DNA sequences?  Or is it
> because of the perceived business model of ORCID vs. GenBank (NCBI)?  Or is it
> that ORCID has competitors (do they, though?), and GenBank is more of a
> monopoly (suggesting that monopolies are OK)?  Or, maybe there the same
> outrage against GenBank that is being expressed here against ORCID?
> 
> I debated whether to write this second paragraph, because I will probably end
> up stirring a pot that has (blissfully) not been stirred before, but... here goes...
> So, the ICZN "requires" unique identifiers (ZooBank) to be assigned to
> published works that contain Code-governed nomenclatural acts in cases
> where the work is published only in electronic form.  This applies to a LOT of
> journals -- probably more than the number of journals that require ORCIDs for
> authors.  While there are some who have grumbled about the ZooBank
> requirements (fair enough), I haven't seen anyone complain on the basis of
> personal freedom.  (Nor did I see any complaints on the basis of personal
> freedom prior to the Amendment, when the Code flat-out rejected any/all
> electronically published works under any circumstances).  Perhaps the
> difference here is that it's less of an infringement on personal freedom to
> require registration of one's publication, rather than oneself.  But.... you can't
> assign a ZooBank identifier to a published work without also assigning
> ZooBank identifiers to the authors of said work. Thus, in effect, the ICZN
> "requires" all authors of published works containing nomenclatural acts to
> have a unique identifier assigned to them (as an author).
> 
> Like I said, I have a sense of trepidation in making this point here, as I may be
> stirring a pot that is best not stirred.  But perhaps I am missing some
> fundamental difference between how ORCIDs are assigned to people, vs. how
> ZooBank identifiers are assigned to people.
> 
> Aloha,
> Rich
> 
> Richard L. Pyle, PhD
> Senior Curator of Ichthyology | Director of XCoRE Bernice Pauahi Bishop
> Museum
> 1525 Bernice Street, Honolulu, HI 96817-2704
> Office: (808) 848-4115;  Fax: (808) 847-8252
> eMail: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org
> BishopMuseum.org
> Our Mission: Bishop Museum inspires our community and visitors through the
> exploration and celebration of the extraordinary history, culture, and
> environment of Hawaiʻi and the Pacific.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> On Behalf Of
> > Michael Heads via Taxacom
> > Sent: Monday, December 7, 2020 8:26 AM
> > To: Tony Rees <tonyrees49 at gmail.com>; Taxacom
> > <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Forcing ORCID on researchers
> >
> > who pays for orcid? They're obviously spending a ton of money.
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 7:22 AM Tony Rees via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Carlos, all,
> > >
> > > Unlike Carlos I do not have a problem with OrcID (hi Carlos!) or
> > > other identifier systems - in fact I use a range of them on the
> > > basis that each has its own benefits, and I can live with any
> > > downsides... my views are expressed more fully in a comment on one
> > > of Rod Page's iPhylo blog posts, see
> > >
> > > https://iphylo.blogspot.com/2020/04/wikidata-and-bibliography-of-lif
> > > e-
> > > in.html
> > > ,
> > > where I wrote:
> > > ---------------
> > >
> > > [One of my processes for personal data management is to] "put lists
> > > of my publications on multiple externally hosted sites that
> > > specialise in this stuff and expect to persist (NOT a personal
> > > website), using the LOCKSS principle (Lots of Copies Keeps Stuff
> > > Safe), and keep the lists updated - at present I use:
> > >
> > > -- Google Scholar http://scholar.google.com.a...
> > > <
> > > http://disq.us/url?url=http%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com.au%2Fcitation
> > > s%
> > > 3Fuser%3D3I7QbQQAAAAJ%3A6HFakquLPRSeDqyQwo3ZPn-
> > MVnk&cuid=117200
> > > >
> > > -- ResearcherID: http://www.researcherid.com...
> > > <
> > >
> http://disq.us/url?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researcherid.com%2Frid%2FK-
> > 983
> > > 7-2015%3AJmlZAxysE5tJoh8NtcapccydL2c&cuid=117200
> > > >
> > > -- OrcID http://orcid.org/0000-0003-...
> > > <
> > > http://disq.us/url?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1887-
> > 5211%3A
> > > O1Y_wVhf8eysyLVAKDMXYFq7lp8&cuid=117200
> > > >
> > > -- Researchgate https://www.researchgate.ne...
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2
> > > FTony_Rees2%2Fpublications%3AgBBOy3c-pJUslmGz4Y0WsTTo-
> > nM&cuid=117200
> > > >
> > > -- academia.edu
> > > <
> > >
> >
> http://disq.us/url?url=http%3A%2F%2Facademia.edu%3A2ondROJrCIzbBxAwJ
> > ce
> > > Gw__41yY&cuid=117200
> > > >
> > >  https://independent.academi...
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Findependent.academia.edu%2FTony
> > R
> > > ees2%3AHRIeX8IuXcFq0axTJ-KpUSkA6l4&cuid=117200
> > > >
> > >
> > > ...this way there is at least a chance that a future interested
> > > person might find them, via one of these routes."
> > > ---------------
> > >
> > > I do not feel forced to use OrcID, it is something that I see of
> > > some value to me and those that might be interested in discovering
> > > my work, either now or after I have left the planet... But I
> > > appreciate that not everybody has the same view on this.
> > >
> > > Regards to all - Tony
> > >
> > > Tony Rees, New South Wales, Australia https://about.me/TonyRees
> > > www.irmng.org
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, 8 Dec 2020 at 05:04, Wouter Addink via Taxacom <
> > > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > > A person name is not a persistent unique identifier, it is not
> > > > unique enough and also not always persistent so you cannot compare
> > > > them with an ORCID ID.
> > > >
> > > > Unique identifiers themselves are pretty harmless, but they enable
> > > linking
> > > > of data and that can have ethical issues.
> > > >
> > > >  A passport ID is needed to travel and ip addresses are needed to
> > > > surf
> > > the
> > > > internet. Similarly a person identifier is needed in research to
> > > identify a
> > > > researcher. So far no problem but when passport id's, ip addresses
> > > > and internet data are linked by a government things can get nasty.
> > > >
> > > > For ORCID id's I think the problem is not so big because it is not
> > > directly
> > > > possible to connect to a governmental person identifier like a
> > > > passport number.
> > > >
> > > > But imagine a regime does not like publications about climate
> > > > change and uses ORCID to force your organisation to fire you
> > > > because they used ORCID to find out that you published about
> > > > climate change and who you are
> > > working
> > > > for?
> > > >
> > > > Luckily you could hide these publications or your Organisation in
> > > > ORCID
> > > so
> > > > you have at least some control. But this is not a problem of the
> > > > identifiers but a problem of governments and regulation. Stopping
> > > > to use passport id's, ip addresses or orcids is not a very workable
> solution.
> > > >
> > > > W.
> > > >
> > > > Op ma 7 dec. 2020 18:17 schreef Frank T. Krell via Taxacom <
> > > > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ethical implications of getting a unique identifier? You were
> > > > > forced by your parents or your country of origin to have a name.
> > > > > It is somewhat useful, isn't it?
> > > > > Having a unique identifier is just a step further in the
> > > > > direction of
> > > > > clarity: There are over 70 people called Carlos Muñoz on
> > > > > Research Gate,
> > > > for
> > > > > example. There is an even bigger problem with Chinese names, and
> > > > > China
> > > is
> > > > > now leading in output of scientific papers. Personal proper
> > > > > names are
> > > not
> > > > > unique. The problem gets inflated if journals (or authors)
> > > > > initialize
> > > > their
> > > > > first name. ORCID gives you the freedom to publish in a journal
> > > > > that initializes your first name, or does not consider your
> > > > > middle names,
> > > and
> > > > > you are still identifiable.
> > > > > The whole business of publication is bringing yourself into the
> > > > > public
> > > > and
> > > > > giving up your privacy to some extent. This is one aspect of our
> > > > existence
> > > > > as scientists.
> > > > > Your passport has a unique number, too. Would you reject it and
> > > > > rather
> > > > not
> > > > > travel because it is forced onto you? That is your choice.
> > > > > Unique identifiers are a good thing in science (and other
> > > > > aspects of
> > > life
> > > > > in society). There are lots of bad things to fight, but I
> > > > > wouldn't lose
> > > > my
> > > > > sleep about unique identifiers.
> > > > > Frank
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr. Frank-Thorsten Krell
> > > > >
> > > > > Senior Curator of Entomology, Editor-in-Chief Commissioner and
> > > > Councillor,
> > > > > International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature Department
> > > > > of
> > > Zoology
> > > > > Denver Museum of Nature & Science
> > > > > 2001 Colorado Blvd
> > > > > Denver, Colorado 80205-5798, U.S.A.
> > > > > Frank.krell at dmns.org
> > > > > Phone 303.370.8244
> > > > > Fax 303.331.6492
> > > > > https://www.dmns.org/science/zoology/staff/frank-krell/
> > > > >
> > > > > We are OPEN and can't wait to welcome you back! Escape to the
> > > > > Museum
> > > and
> > > > > play the day away in "The Art of the Brick" and "Dogs! A Science
> > > > > Tail."  Special ticket required for each exhibition in addition
> > > > > to
> > > timed
> > > > > entry into the Museum.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> On Behalf
> Of
> > > > > Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz via Taxacom
> > > > > Sent: Monday, December 7, 2020 8:31 AM
> > > > > To: Roger Hyam <RHyam at rbge.org.uk>
> > > > > Cc: Taxa com <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Forcing ORCID on researchers
> > > > >
> > > > > What all this thread has confirmed is how easily the smartest
> > > > > people on the planet can miss the ethical implications of their
> > > > > choices. Leaves little hope for those of use that are not so smart.
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > >
> > > > > Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
> > > > > Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
> > > > > FI-20014 University of Turku
> > > > > Finland
> > > > > Myriatrix <http://myriatrix.myspecies.info/>
> > > > > ResearchGate profile
> > > > > <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carlos_Martinez-Munoz>
> > > > > Myriapod Morphology and Evolution
> > > > > <https://www.facebook.com/groups/205802113162102/>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > El lun, 7 dic 2020 a las 17:23, Roger Hyam (<RHyam at rbge.org.uk>)
> > > > escribió:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Well folks I’m building a botanical system that requires an
> > > > > > ORCID to login and all this thread has done is confirm I’ve
> > > > > > made the right
> > > > > decision.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Roger
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 7 Dec 2020, at 14:38, Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz <
> > > > > > biotemail at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Wouter,
> > > > > > The ORCID initiative is not-for-profit, but the implementation
> > > > > > is
> > > not.
> > > > > > ORCID has for-profit members paying membership fees and then
> > > > > > 1) building for-profit tools on top of ORCID IDs and 2) making
> > > > > > ORCID IDs mandatory in journals. Those tools and journals are
> > > > > > then sold back to public institutions, priced with profit
> > > > > > margins of up to 37%, higher than the profit margins of oil
> > > > > > companies. That is why it is so counterproductive, expensive
> > > > > > and unfair to turn anything into a standard when the full
> > > > > > not-for-profit implementation cycle is far
> > > from
> > > > > > existing. In an ideal world, the full implementation cycle,
> > > > > > with
> > > ORCID
> > > > > > expenses, tools and journals would be not-for-profit. Then I
> > > > > > would have no ethical problem in getting an ORCID.
> > > > > > Forceful adoption happens when the institutions buying a tool
> > > > > > get an ORCID-based added service in a pricing bundle that they
> > > > > > cannot refuse unless they refuse the whole package. Forceful
> > > > > > adoption happens when all or most of the journals where one
> > > > > > can
> > publish in demand an ORCID.
> > > > > > If you cannot see that using and promoting ORCID is not
> > > > > > ethically neutral, then you should stop doing both things.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > By the way, I don't expect you to easily find the footprints
> > > > > > of Elsevier, Nature Publishing and Thomson Reuters in nowadays
> ORCID.
> > > You
> > > > > > will have to look deeper into the past, even before ORCID was
> > > founded.
> > > > > > Have fun with your reading!
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
> > > > > > Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
> > > > > > FI-20014 University of Turku
> > > > > > Finland
> > > > > > Myriatrix
> > > > > > <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmyr
> > > i
> > > > > > atrix.myspecies.info%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > > %7C42a501606
> > > > > >
> > >
> >
> f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0
> > %7C0%7C6
> > > > > >
> > >
> >
> 37429487178399690%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMD
> > AiLCJQIjoi
> > > > > >
> > >
> >
> V2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=TfsbmT7wrvRC
> > %2BHu1
> > > > > > B9DBtxE%2FgaQUUTsFU%2FjVjunxhMM%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > > > ResearchGate profile
> > > > > > <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww
> > > w
> > > > > > .researchgate.net
> > > %2Fprofile%2FCarlos_Martinez-Munoz&data=04%7C01%7CRHy
> > > > > > am%40rbge.org.uk
> > > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7
> > > > > >
> > >
> >
> b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178409688%7CUnknown%7CT
> > WFpbGZsb3d8
> > > > > >
> > >
> >
> eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D
> > %7C1
> > > > > >
> > >
> >
> 000&sdata=wz%2FSc%2F6nWcXrARq%2BHlPQ7ERGJtEz%2BtkbDxF2%2Fq1KA
> > WU%3D&res
> > > > > > erved=0>
> > > > > > Myriapod Morphology and Evolution <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww
> > > w
> > > > > > .facebook.com
> > > %2Fgroups%2F205802113162102%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbg
> > > > > > e.org.uk
> > >
> >
> %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74
> > > > > >
> > >
> >
> 158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178409688%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb
> > 3d8eyJWIjoi
> > > > > >
> > >
> >
> MC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000
> > &sdat
> > > > > >
> > a=l6r9ffI2PTzQA4RycdkWZNfh7nfscZPmBOis2uC29Aw%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > El lun, 7 dic 2020 a las 16:19, Wouter Addink
> > > > > > (<wouter.addink at naturalis.nl>)
> > > > > > escribió:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Hi Carlos,
> > > > > >> I did not say that orcid ids do not cost money, I said they
> > > > > >> do not cost you as a researcher money. Every persistent
> > > > > >> identifier system
> > > > > costs money.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I am no financial expert, but their tax statements are online
> > > > > >> and it looks to me like the main income is from membership
> > > > > >> fees, orcid has over
> > > > > >> 1000 members. Most of them probably universities. There is
> > > > > >> income from grants and sponsorship too and elsevier is one of
> > > > > >> 17 platinum
> > > > > sponsors.
> > > > > >> Most of these sponsorships are only foundational loans though.
> > > > > >> Springer and Plos are in the board, I do not see Elsevier
> > > > > >> there, but I think publishers should as stakeholders be part
> > > > > >> of the board (but not majority). According to orcid bylaws
> > > > > >> the board is required to have a majority of individuals from
> > > > > >> non-profit members and the board always includes 2 elected
> > > > > >> researchers. So I see nothing in the funding or governance
> > > > > >> model that worries me and I see no evidence
> > > of a
> > > > > major role from elsevier either.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Kind regards
> > > > > >> Wouter
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Op ma 7 dec. 2020 14:23 schreef Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz
> > > > > >> <
> > > > > >> biotemail at gmail.com>:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>> Hi Rod,
> > > > > >>> "*Rather, I think the main drivers come from the publishing
> > > > > >>> industry, funders, and academia, who see value in being able
> > > > > >>> to identify people, and hence accurately measure their
> > > > > >>> academic contributions (be it authoring, reviewing, getting
> > > > > >>> grants,
> > etc.).*"
> > > > > >>> I agree about the main drivers and I will comment on this.
> > > > > >>> To save me some time, please introduce to this list the
> > > > > >>> ORCID funding
> > > model,
> > > > > >>> with the history of early funders and today's main funders.
> > > > > >>> That's where we should start.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> "You mention “personal freedom”, it’s not clear to me how
> > > > > >>> your freedom is affected by having an ORCID. Is it the ORCID
> > > > > >>> you object to, or the notion of having an identifier at
> > > > > >>> all?" My freedom includes the freedom to choose having an
> > > > > >>> identifier or not, and my freedom includes which identifiers
> > > > > >>> from all those available I am going to choose. My English is
> > > > > >>> not good, but I expected that it was enough to convey those
> > > > > >>> ideas. An increasing number of journals are forcing
> > > > > >>> researchers to have identifiers, and to specifically have
> > > > > >>> ORCID. It is pretty significant when megajournals or
> > > > > >>> publishers do that. As the snowball effect increases, we are
> > > > > >>> left with the option of having an identifier (and only
> > > > > >>> ORCID!) or not having it and not publishing anymore. In this
> > > > > >>> context, preservation of freedom means to recommend good
> > > > > >>> practices and to have the technical capability of
> > > > > >>> implementing them, but freedom is not preserved by forcing
> > > > > >>> adoption of a practice which is not essential to the
> > > > > >>> scientific content of
> > > the
> > > > > publications.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Dear Roger,
> > > > > >>> "*for example, Research Gate (which you rate so highly as to
> > > > > >>> have
> > > in
> > > > > >>> your email signature)*". Having a platform in an email
> > > > > >>> signature does not mean that there is endorsement to that
> > > > > >>> platform. That is your personal interpretation. I was free
> > > > > >>> to choose whether to have RG or not, and even more, I also
> > > > > >>> could choose and have an Academia profile as well. No
> > > > > >>> journal has demanded me to get any of those accounts.
> > > > > >>> Moreover, I previously had a Publons account in my email
> > > > > >>> signature. After Publons was bought by Clarivate Analytics,
> > > > > >>> I deleted my Publons account and demanded Clarivate to wipe
> > > > > >>> off all
> > > my
> > > > > data.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Dear Wouter,
> > > > > >>> About the freedom of choice, see the snowball effect above.
> > > > > >>> About the ORCID not costing money, you are very naive if you
> > > > > >>> believe
> > > that.
> > > > > >>> Don't you think that I haven't noticed Elsevier's long
> > > > > >>> tentacles behind ORCID, and don't you think that I haven't
> > > > > >>> noticed how they squeeze money from whole countries by
> > > > > >>> implementing ORCID into their service package bundle,
> > > > > >>> including Pure. I believe that I don't need to remind anyone
> > > > > >>> here that Elsevier makes more profit than oil companies and
> > > > > >>> that it is well-known for its abusive pricing and bullying
> > > > > >>> behavior. We are all paying for ORCID, and we pay two times.
> > > > > >>> First, we pay with our work, manually curating and linking
> > > > > >>> our research to us, data which publishers happily collect.
> > > > > >>> Then, we pay a second time, when publishers squeeze the cost
> > > > > >>> of ORCID implementation out of us, and with astonishing profits.
> > > > > >>> I am not
> > > > going
> > > > > to be one more researcher supporting Elsevier's statistics. Thank you!
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Cheers,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
> > > > > >>> Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
> > > > > >>> FI-20014 University of Turku Finland Myriatrix <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmy
> > > > > >>>
> riatrix.myspecies.info%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > > %7C42a50
> > > > > >>>
> > >
> >
> 1606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4
> > %7C0%7
> > > > > >>>
> > >
> >
> C0%7C637429487178419675%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4w
> > LjAwMDAi
> > > > > >>>
> > >
> >
> LCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=eAMDY
> > pcu
> > > > > >>> B3dEXEmqREe5CJXjuqas%2FblUBjA4EK9nmIQ%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > > >>> ResearchGate profile
> > > > > >>> <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fw
> > > > > >>> ww.researchgate.net
> > > %2Fprofile%2FCarlos_Martinez-Munoz&data=04%7C01%7
> > > > > >>> CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb0017
> > > > > >>>
> > >
> >
> 5e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178419675%7CUnknow
> > n%7CTWFp
> > > > > >>>
> > >
> >
> bGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6
> > > > > >>>
> > >
> >
> Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=7fYQMcW1IWkSdZOcGQXyw9j8DWZJe0zfglLEOUfk
> > ZT8%3D&r
> > > > > >>> eserved=0>
> > > > > >>> Myriapod Morphology and Evolution <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fw
> > > > > >>> ww.facebook.com
> > > %2Fgroups%2F205802113162102%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%4
> > > > > >>> 0rbge.org.uk
> > > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7
> > > > > >>>
> > >
> >
> b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178429673%7CUnknown%7CTWF
> > pbGZsb3d8
> > > > > >>>
> > >
> >
> eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D
> > %7
> > > > > >>>
> > >
> >
> C1000&sdata=H1as0GCDdXbo4uQcwMsBh5H0ppX%2FlU5Qi0g3AV%2B0h%2F
> > 0%3D&res
> > > > > >>> erved=0>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> El lun, 7 dic 2020 a las 14:38, Roderic Page (<
> > > > > >>> Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>) escribió:
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Hi Carlos,
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Just to unpack this a little, ORCID isn’t anything to do
> > > > > >>>> with biodiversity informatics as such, its scope is all
> > > > > >>>> academic publishing. You will see the requirement for an
> > > > > >>>> ORCID appearing in many journals, not just Zootaxa. See for
> > > > > >>>> example
> > > > > >>>>
> > > https://orcid.org/content/requiring-orcid-publication-workflows-ope
> > > > > >>>> n-letter
> > > > > >>>> <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2F
> > > > > >>>> orcid.org
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > %2Fcontent%2Frequiring-orcid-publication-workflows-open-letter&data=
> > > 04
> > > %7C01%7CRHyam%
> > > > > 40rbge.org.uk
> > > >
> > >
> >
> %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74
> > 158e4fd4
> > >
> >
> %7C0%7C0%7C637429487178429673%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWI
> > joiMC4wLjAw
> > >
> >
> MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Co
> > Lrp%
> > > 2BUeMeSkRvxLgW5m99uRUcPjqxWdVC4yWu85dUw%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > > So I think this is an inevitable trend no matter where you chose
> > > > > to
> > > > publish.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> You mention “personal freedom”, it’s not clear to me how
> > > > > >>>> your freedom is affected by having an ORCID. Is it the
> > > > > >>>> ORCID you object to, or the notion of having an identifier at all?
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Just to be clear, I’m genuinely interested in how people
> > > > > >>>> view ORCIDs (and other identifiers). And I think that the
> > > > > >>>> reason ORCIDs exist is not primarily for the benefit of
> > > > > >>>> individual researchers, although one could argue that it is
> > > > > >>>> useful to be able to clearly identify yourself to avoid
> > > > > >>>> being conflated with another
> > > researcher,
> > > > > >>>> and having your academic CV automatically generated.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Rather, I think the main drivers come from the publishing
> > > industry,
> > > > > >>>> funders, and academia, who see value in being able to
> > > > > >>>> identify people, and hence accurately measure their
> > > > > >>>> academic contributions (be it authoring, reviewing, getting
> > > > > >>>> grants, etc.). People like me who work in trying to link
> > > > > >>>> data together tend to view ORCIDs positively (sorting out
> > > > > >>>> the mess of people names in databases will be much easier
> > > > > >>>> if everyone had - and used - an ORCID). I
> > > appreciate
> > > > > that not everyone sees them this way.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Regards,
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Rod
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> On 7 Dec 2020, at 11:58, Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz <
> > > > > >>>> biotemail at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Hi Rod,
> > > > > >>>> There have been many irregularities in expanding ORCID and
> > > > > >>>> getting it adopted. Some have been discussed here, some I
> > > > > >>>> have seen
> > > myself.
> > > > > >>>> I have no time to discuss them all here. In the spotlight,
> > > > > >>>> there
> > > is
> > > > > >>>> this paragraph by Wouter Addink, which was really
> > > > > >>>> deplorable and which, at least for me, closed ORCID as an option:
> > > > > >>>> "*I am also amazed to see though, that there are still many
> > > authors
> > > > > >>>> not using their ORCID iD in OA publications or maintain
> > > > > >>>> their
> > > ORCID
> > > > > >>>> iD without any public information about their publications.
> > > > > >>>> I
> > > think
> > > > > >>>> there might even still be researchers who do not have an
> > > > > >>>> ORCID iD, although I don't know any.*" Well, Wouter, hello there!
> > > > > >>>> Down to the core, Rod: This is a matter of personal freedom.
> > > > > >>>> Whoever forces an ID on researchers misses that. And
> > > > > >>>> whoever
> > > forces
> > > > > >>>> ONE ID above all others misses that two times. There is
> > > > > >>>> more in this world than the narrow field of biodiversity
> informatics.
> > > > > >>>> Cheers,
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
> > > > > >>>> Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
> > > > > >>>> FI-20014 University of Turku Finland Myriatrix <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fm
> > > > > >>>>
> > yriatrix.myspecies.info%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > > %7C42a
> > > > > >>>>
> > >
> >
> 501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd
> > 4%7C
> > > > > >>>>
> > >
> >
> 0%7C0%7C637429487178429673%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiM
> > C4wLjAw
> > > > > >>>>
> > >
> >
> MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=ac
> > 4
> > > > > >>>>
> gjrlxYk54MoMc9ZDAowAXdXrSejUnVfYRikr5D4o%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > > >>>> ResearchGate profile
> > > > > >>>> <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2F
> > > > > >>>> www.researchgate.net
> > > %2Fprofile%2FCarlos_Martinez-Munoz&data=04%7C01
> > > > > >>>> %7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb0
> > > > > >>>>
> > >
> >
> 0175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178439669%7CUnkn
> > own%7C
> > > > > >>>>
> > >
> >
> TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJ
> > > > > >>>>
> > >
> >
> XVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=UdekM%2FknnKnabfnpcs1nX4g9o9DM5ou%
> > 2BKfDsqH
> > > > > >>>> wx8ec%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > > >>>> Myriapod Morphology and Evolution <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2F
> > > > > >>>> www.facebook.com
> > > %2Fgroups%2F205802113162102%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam
> > > > > >>>> %40rbge.org.uk
> > > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b
> > > > > >>>>
> > >
> >
> 7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178439669%7CUnknown%7CT
> > WFpbGZs
> > > > > >>>>
> > >
> >
> b3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0
> > > > > >>>>
> > >
> >
> %3D%7C1000&sdata=wpyrCxtuOLYKtvr8PiBaORuuxLJ1ss0e8LLWPoOl6Q8%3D
> > &res
> > > > > >>>> erved=0>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> El lun, 7 dic 2020 a las 13:41, Roderic Page (<
> > > > > >>>> Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>) escribió:
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Hi Carlos,
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> I’m curious as to why you object to getting an ORCID? Is
> > > > > >>>>> it an objection to identifier sin general, or ORCID in particular?
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Regards,
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Rod
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> On 7 Dec 2020, at 11:36, Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz via
> > > Taxacom
> > > > > >>>>> < taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Dear Taxacomers,
> > > > > >>>>> I have been informed today by a co-author that Zootaxa has
> > > decided
> > > > > >>>>> to be strict and to enforce ORCID for all authors.
> > > > > >>>>> For all you journal editors and owners in this list: You
> > > > > >>>>> are not welcome to force an identifier on researchers, and
> > > > > >>>>> even less to force ONE identifier above all others, without
> alternatives.
> > > Also,
> > > > > >>>>> it is useless. You might force researchers to have an ID
> > > > > >>>>> at the time of publication, but you cannot force
> > > > > >>>>> researchers to keep
> > it.
> > > > > >>>>> I will make sure that my ORCID gets wiped off after publication.
> > > > > >>>>> And every time you force me to get one, the same will
> > > > > >>>>> happen again. As the platform says, getting an ORCID just
> > > > > >>>>> takes a
> > > minute.
> > > > > >>>>> Anthony Gill previously wrote: "My take is ORCID can take
> > > > > >>>>> a
> > > flying
> > > > > >>>>> jump at itself." Couldn't agree more.
> > > > > >>>>> Cheers,
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
> > > > > >>>>> Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
> > > > > >>>>> FI-20014 University of Turku Finland Myriatrix
> > > > > >>>>> <http://myriatrix.myspecies.info/ <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
> > > > > >>>>>
> > myriatrix.myspecies.info%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.
> > > > > >>>>> uk
> > > %7C4
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> 2a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4
> > fd4
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> %7C0%7C0%7C637429487178449663%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWI
> > joiMC4w
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> LjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdat
> > > > > >>>>>
> > a=gYA83w6ok7p7RTgQjKbgcEkFBw9Rn%2B5bZn4FuJnMzPg%3D&reserved=
> > > > > >>>>> 0>
> > > > > >>>>> >
> > > > > >>>>> ResearchGate profile
> > > > > >>>>> <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carlos_Martinez-Muno
> > > > > >>>>> z
> > > > > >>>>> <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2
> > > > > >>>>> Fwww.researchgate.net
> > > %2Fprofile%2FCarlos_Martinez-Munoz&data=04%7C
> > > > > >>>>> 01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178449663%7CU
> > nknow
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> > n%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1ha
> > W
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> wiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=KK7rqXjGye5FQTLjv4zV%2BufHRnKOmV
> > N%2B
> > > > > >>>>> oKl4vbc5wp8%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > > >>>>> >
> > > > > >>>>> Myriapod Morphology and Evolution
> > > > > >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/groups/205802113162102/
> > > > > >>>>> <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2
> > > > > >>>>> Fwww.facebook.com
> > > %2Fgroups%2F205802113162102%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHy
> > > > > >>>>> am%40rbge.org.uk
> > > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> 46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178459658%7CUnknown%
> > 7CTWFp
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> bGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVC
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> I6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=rAx3lxLm9wYkgKD%2ByoeeIYXvX4E3ki6O5STfaH3
> > UrY
> > > > > >>>>> Y%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > > >>>>> >
> > > > > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > > >>>>> Taxacom Mailing List
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to:
> > > > > >>>>> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu For list information; to
> > > > > >>>>> subscribe or
> > > > > unsubscribe, visit:
> > > > > >>>>> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > > > >>>>> <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
> > > > > >>>>> mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > %2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=0
> > > > > >>>>> 4%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7C
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> bb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178459658
> > %7CUn
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> known%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> 1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=weZ%2ByIjHK2317WgQqu5hHlJcm
> > i6HX5
> > > > > >>>>> Purqr3zAShrAA%3D&reserved=0> You can reach the person
> > > > > >>>>> managing
> > > the
> > > > > >>>>> list at:
> > > > > >>>>> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu The Taxacom email
> archive
> > > > > >>>>> back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > > > > >>>>> http://taxacom.markmail.org <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
> > > > > >>>>>
> > taxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > > %7C42a50
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> 1606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4
> > %7C0
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> %7C0%7C637429487178469649%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC
> > 4wLjAw
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=KT
> > > > > >>>>>
> > tKhndeYGo5FEZzxD70Nr4AcWozdNWmRdbeuwEoGD8%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33
> > > > > >>>>> years, 1987-2020.
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >>>>> Roderic Page
> > > > > >>>>> Professor of Taxonomy
> > > > > >>>>> Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative
> > > > > >>>>> Medicine College of Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences
> > > > > >>>>> Graham Kerr Building University of Glasgow Glasgow G12
> > > > > >>>>> 8QQ, UK
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Email:  Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk
> > > > > >>>>> Tel:  +44 141 330 4778
> > > > > >>>>> Skype:  rdmpage
> > > > > >>>>> Facebook:  http://www.facebook.com/rdmpage <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
> > > > > >>>>>
> > www.facebook.com%2Frdmpage&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.u
> > > > > >>>>> k
> > > %7C42
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4f
> > d4%
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> 7C0%7C0%7C637429487178469649%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjo
> > iMC4wL
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> jAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata
> > > > > >>>>>
> >
> =8X1E6P6B%2BVAW4Tpc7nDDN8SDK9f41gNd8nsW3L6pgyM%3D&reserved=0
> > > > > >>>>> >
> > > > > >>>>> LinkedIn:  https://uk.linkedin.com/in/rdmpage
> > > > > >>>>> <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2
> > > > > >>>>>
> Fuk.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Frdmpage&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%
> > > 40rbge.org.uk
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74
> > 158e
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> 4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178479648%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8e
> > yJWIjoi
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> MC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000
> > &
> > > > > >>>>>
> > sdata=FSAONn5ROpPIdKfwYiHkudmNOxBSgw9FkQBGzRqAAeU%3D&reserve
> > > > > >>>>> d=0>
> > > > > >>>>> Twitter:  https://twitter.com/rdmpage <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2
> > > > > >>>>>
> > Ftwitter.com%2Frdmpage&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > > %7C42a501
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> 606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%
> > 7C0%
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> 7C0%7C637429487178479648%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4
> > wLjAwM
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> DAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=fS4
> > > > > >>>>>
> > ruaEKW6VLmntErW0PJwmJHeQgrq0pqcH5bA0dE9Q%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > > >>>>> Blog:  https://iphylo.blogspot.com <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2
> > > > > >>>>>
> > Fiphylo.blogspot.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > > %7C42a50
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> 1606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4
> > %7C0
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> %7C0%7C637429487178489643%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC
> > 4wLjAw
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Lq
> > > > > >>>>>
> >
> 2nhAIM%2F%2FKlp0smcCZS6aMDB7fAFPa2oOa7MQt0vko%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > > >>>>> ORCID:  https://orcid.org/0000-0002-7101-9767
> > > > > >>>>> <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > Forcid.org%2F0000-0002-7101-
> > 9767&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.u
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> k%7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc7
> > 4158
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178489643%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8
> > eyJWIjo
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> iMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C100
> > 0
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> &sdata=5fxelIjeqiO%2F6S%2BBPKaQn%2BlWsY0eE2qZwoGhPSKWyFg%3D&re
> > serv
> > > > > >>>>> ed=0>
> > > > > >>>>> Citations:
> > > > > >>>>> https://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAA
> > > > > >>>>> AA
> > > > > >>>>> AJ
> > > > > >>>>> <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2
> > > > > >>>>> Fscholar.google.co.uk
> > > %2Fcitations%3Fhl%3Den%26user%3D4Z5WABAAAAAJ&
> > > > > >>>>> data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> 7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178
> > 49963
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> 2%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiL
> > CJB
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> TiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=kQVKgI8bCYHYsH5afgjH6Qtz
> > qK
> > > > > >>>>> tccVqAMOcn8nkJDW4%3D&reserved=0> ResearchGate
> > > > > >>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Roderic_Page
> > > > > >>>>> <
> > > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2
> > > > > >>>>> Fwww.researchgate.net
> > > %2Fprofile%2FRoderic_Page&data=04%7C01%7CRHya
> > > > > >>>>> m%40rbge.org.uk
> > > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e4
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> 6b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178499632%7CUnknown%7
> > CTWFpb
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> GZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
> >
> 6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=SSf320cigrMEKqpi1l3KWy0FpG8SWNKBVFk99hGrJ
> > bw%3
> > > > > >>>>> D&reserved=0>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >
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> > > > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to:
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> > > For
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> > > > >
> > > > > Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years,
> > > > 1987-2020.
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > > >
> > > > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to:
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> back
> > > > > to 1992 can be searched at:
> > > > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > > >
> > > > > Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years,
> > > > 1987-2020.
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > >
> > > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to:
> > > > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu For list information; to subscribe or
> unsubscribe, visit:
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> > > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
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> > > > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > >
> > > > Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years,
> > > 1987-2020.
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > >
> > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
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> > > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >
> > > Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years, 1987-
> 2020.
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dunedin, New Zealand.
> >
> > My books:
> >
> > *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC,
> > Boca Raton FL. 2017.
> > https://www.routledge.com/Biogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-
> > Zealand/Heads/p/book/9781498751872
> >
> >
> > *Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis*. Cambridge
> > University Press, Cambridge. 2014. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028
> >
> >
> > *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California
> > Press, Berkeley. 2012. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968
> >
> >
> > *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University
> > Press, New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
> > http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC
> >
> <http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC&dq=panbiogeography
> > &source=gbs_navlinks_s>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
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> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-
> > owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can
> be
> > searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years, 1987-2020.



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