[Taxacom] Forcing ORCID on researchers

Wouter Addink wouter.addink at naturalis.nl
Tue Dec 8 06:41:38 CST 2020


Hi Carlos,
Orcid data that an individual decides to make public is CC0 - public
domain. So orcid has no control over how its data is used by a publisher or
any other user and whether they require it in their tools or what they
charge for their tools. A publisher can sell journals and tools but cannot
sell orcid data. If they do you have to complain with the publisher.

Kind regards,
Wouter

On Mon, 7 Dec 2020 at 15:38, Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz <
biotemail at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Wouter,
> The ORCID initiative is not-for-profit, but the implementation is not.
> ORCID has for-profit members paying membership fees and then 1) building
> for-profit tools on top of ORCID IDs and 2) making ORCID IDs mandatory in
> journals. Those tools and journals are then sold back to public
> institutions, priced with profit margins of up to 37%, higher than the
> profit margins of oil companies. That is why it is so counterproductive,
> expensive and unfair to turn anything into a standard when the full
> not-for-profit implementation cycle is far from existing. In an ideal
> world, the full implementation cycle, with ORCID expenses, tools and
> journals would be not-for-profit. Then I would have no ethical problem in
> getting an ORCID.
> Forceful adoption happens when the institutions buying a tool get an
> ORCID-based added service in a pricing bundle that they cannot refuse
> unless they refuse the whole package. Forceful adoption happens when all or
> most of the journals where one can publish in demand an ORCID.
> If you cannot see that using and promoting ORCID is not ethically neutral,
> then you should stop doing both things.
>
> By the way, I don't expect you to easily find the footprints of Elsevier,
> Nature Publishing and Thomson Reuters in nowadays ORCID. You will have to
> look deeper into the past, even before ORCID was founded. Have fun with
> your reading!
> Cheers,
>
> Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
> Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
> FI-20014 University of Turku
> Finland
> Myriatrix <http://myriatrix.myspecies.info/>
> ResearchGate profile
> <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carlos_Martinez-Munoz>
> Myriapod Morphology and Evolution
> <https://www.facebook.com/groups/205802113162102/>
>
>
>
>
> El lun, 7 dic 2020 a las 16:19, Wouter Addink (<wouter.addink at naturalis.nl>)
> escribió:
>
>> Hi Carlos,
>> I did not say that orcid ids do not cost money, I said they do not cost
>> you as a researcher money. Every persistent identifier system costs money.
>>
>> I am no financial expert, but their tax statements are online and it
>> looks to me like the main income is from membership fees, orcid has over
>> 1000 members. Most of them probably universities. There is income from
>> grants and sponsorship too and elsevier is one of 17 platinum sponsors.
>> Most of these sponsorships are only foundational loans though. Springer and
>> Plos are in the board, I do not see Elsevier there, but I think publishers
>> should as stakeholders be part of the board (but not majority). According
>> to orcid bylaws the board is required to have a majority of individuals
>> from non-profit members and the board always includes 2 elected
>> researchers. So I see nothing in the funding or governance model that
>> worries me and I see no evidence of a major role from elsevier either.
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Wouter
>>
>>
>> Op ma 7 dec. 2020 14:23 schreef Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz <
>> biotemail at gmail.com>:
>>
>>> Hi Rod,
>>> "*Rather, I think the main drivers come from the publishing industry,
>>> funders, and academia, who see value in being able to identify people, and
>>> hence accurately measure their academic contributions (be it authoring,
>>> reviewing, getting grants, etc.).*"
>>> I agree about the main drivers and I will comment on this. To save me
>>> some time, please introduce to this list the ORCID funding model, with the
>>> history of early funders and today's main funders. That's where we should
>>> start.
>>>
>>> "You mention “personal freedom”, it’s not clear to me how your freedom
>>> is affected by having an ORCID. Is it the ORCID you object to, or the
>>> notion of having an identifier at all?" My freedom includes the freedom to
>>> choose having an identifier or not, and my freedom includes which
>>> identifiers from all those available I am going to choose. My English is
>>> not good, but I expected that it was enough to convey those ideas. An
>>> increasing number of journals are forcing researchers to have identifiers,
>>> and to specifically have ORCID. It is pretty significant when megajournals
>>> or publishers do that. As the snowball effect increases, we are left with
>>> the option of having an identifier (and only ORCID!) or not having it and
>>> not publishing anymore. In this context, preservation of freedom means to
>>> recommend good practices and to have the technical capability of
>>> implementing them, but freedom is not preserved by forcing adoption of a
>>> practice which is not essential to the scientific content of the
>>> publications.
>>>
>>> Dear Roger,
>>> "*for example, Research Gate (which you rate so highly as to have in
>>> your email signature)*". Having a platform in an email signature does
>>> not mean that there is endorsement to that platform. That is your personal
>>> interpretation. I was free to choose whether to have RG or not, and even
>>> more, I also could choose and have an Academia profile as well. No journal
>>> has demanded me to get any of those accounts. Moreover, I previously had a
>>> Publons account in my email signature. After Publons was bought by
>>> Clarivate Analytics, I deleted my Publons account and demanded Clarivate to
>>> wipe off all my data.
>>>
>>> Dear Wouter,
>>> About the freedom of choice, see the snowball effect above. About the
>>> ORCID not costing money, you are very naive if you believe that. Don't you
>>> think that I haven't noticed Elsevier's long tentacles behind ORCID, and
>>> don't you think that I haven't noticed how they squeeze money from whole
>>> countries by implementing ORCID into their service package bundle,
>>> including Pure. I believe that I don't need to remind anyone here that
>>> Elsevier makes more profit than oil companies and that it is well-known for
>>> its abusive pricing and bullying behavior. We are all paying for ORCID, and
>>> we pay two times. First, we pay with our work, manually curating and
>>> linking our research to us, data which publishers happily collect. Then, we
>>> pay a second time, when publishers squeeze the cost of ORCID implementation
>>> out of us, and with astonishing profits. I am not going to be one more
>>> researcher supporting Elsevier's statistics. Thank you!
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
>>> Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
>>> FI-20014 University of Turku
>>> Finland
>>> Myriatrix <http://myriatrix.myspecies.info/>
>>> ResearchGate profile
>>> <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carlos_Martinez-Munoz>
>>> Myriapod Morphology and Evolution
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/groups/205802113162102/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> El lun, 7 dic 2020 a las 14:38, Roderic Page (<
>>> Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>) escribió:
>>>
>>>> Hi Carlos,
>>>>
>>>> Just to unpack this a little, ORCID isn’t anything to do with
>>>> biodiversity informatics as such, its scope is all academic publishing. You
>>>> will see the requirement for an ORCID appearing in many journals, not just
>>>> Zootaxa. See for example
>>>> https://orcid.org/content/requiring-orcid-publication-workflows-open-letter So
>>>> I think this is an inevitable trend no matter where you chose to publish.
>>>>
>>>> You mention “personal freedom”, it’s not clear to me how your freedom
>>>> is affected by having an ORCID. Is it the ORCID you object to, or the
>>>> notion of having an identifier at all?
>>>>
>>>> Just to be clear, I’m genuinely interested in how people view ORCIDs
>>>> (and other identifiers). And I think that the reason ORCIDs exist is not
>>>> primarily for the benefit of individual researchers, although one could
>>>> argue that it is useful to be able to clearly identify yourself to avoid
>>>> being conflated with another researcher, and having your academic CV
>>>> automatically generated.
>>>>
>>>> Rather, I think the main drivers come from the publishing industry,
>>>> funders, and academia, who see value in being able to identify people, and
>>>> hence accurately measure their academic contributions (be it authoring,
>>>> reviewing, getting grants, etc.). People like me who work in trying to link
>>>> data together tend to view ORCIDs positively (sorting out the mess of
>>>> people names in databases will be much easier if everyone had - and used -
>>>> an ORCID). I appreciate that not everyone sees them this way.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Rod
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 7 Dec 2020, at 11:58, Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz <
>>>> biotemail at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Rod,
>>>> There have been many irregularities in expanding ORCID and getting it
>>>> adopted. Some have been discussed here, some I have seen myself. I have no
>>>> time to discuss them all here. In the spotlight, there is this paragraph by
>>>> Wouter Addink, which was really deplorable and which, at least for me,
>>>> closed ORCID as an option:
>>>> "*I am also amazed to see though, that there are still many authors
>>>> not using their ORCID iD in OA publications or maintain their ORCID iD
>>>> without any public information about their publications. I think there
>>>> might even still be researchers who do not have an ORCID iD, although I
>>>> don't know any.*" Well, Wouter, hello there!
>>>> Down to the core, Rod: This is a matter of personal freedom. Whoever
>>>> forces an ID on researchers misses that. And whoever forces ONE ID above
>>>> all others misses that two times. There is more in this world than the
>>>> narrow field of biodiversity informatics.
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
>>>> Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
>>>> FI-20014 University of Turku
>>>> Finland
>>>> Myriatrix <http://myriatrix.myspecies.info/>
>>>> ResearchGate profile
>>>> <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carlos_Martinez-Munoz>
>>>> Myriapod Morphology and Evolution
>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/groups/205802113162102/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> El lun, 7 dic 2020 a las 13:41, Roderic Page (<
>>>> Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>) escribió:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Carlos,
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m curious as to why you object to getting an ORCID? Is it an
>>>>> objection to identifier sin general, or ORCID in particular?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Rod
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7 Dec 2020, at 11:36, Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz via Taxacom <
>>>>> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Taxacomers,
>>>>> I have been informed today by a co-author that Zootaxa has decided to
>>>>> be
>>>>> strict and to enforce ORCID for all authors.
>>>>> For all you journal editors and owners in this list: You are not
>>>>> welcome to
>>>>> force an identifier on researchers, and even less to force ONE
>>>>> identifier
>>>>> above all others, without alternatives. Also, it is useless. You might
>>>>> force researchers to have an ID at the time of publication, but you
>>>>> cannot
>>>>> force researchers to keep it. I will make sure that my ORCID gets
>>>>> wiped off
>>>>> after publication. And every time you force me to get one, the same
>>>>> will
>>>>> happen again. As the platform says, getting an ORCID just takes a
>>>>> minute.
>>>>> Anthony Gill previously wrote: "My take is ORCID can take a flying
>>>>> jump at
>>>>> itself." Couldn't agree more.
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
>>>>> Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
>>>>> FI-20014 University of Turku
>>>>> Finland
>>>>> Myriatrix <http://myriatrix.myspecies.info/>
>>>>> ResearchGate profile
>>>>> <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carlos_Martinez-Munoz>
>>>>> Myriapod Morphology and Evolution
>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/groups/205802113162102/>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Taxacom Mailing List
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>>>>> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
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>>>>>
>>>>> Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years,
>>>>> 1987-2020.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Roderic Page
>>>>> Professor of Taxonomy
>>>>> Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative Medicine
>>>>> College of Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences
>>>>> Graham Kerr Building
>>>>> University of Glasgow
>>>>> Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK
>>>>>
>>>>> Email:  Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk
>>>>> Tel:  +44 141 330 4778
>>>>> Skype:  rdmpage
>>>>> Facebook:  http://www.facebook.com/rdmpage
>>>>> LinkedIn:  https://uk.linkedin.com/in/rdmpage
>>>>> Twitter:  https://twitter.com/rdmpage
>>>>> Blog:  https://iphylo.blogspot.com
>>>>> ORCID:  https://orcid.org/0000-0002-7101-9767
>>>>> Citations:
>>>>> https://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAAAAAJ
>>>>> ResearchGate https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Roderic_Page
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>

-- 
Coördinator Research-data and E-infrastructure

International Biodiversity Infrastructures
Natural Biodiversity Center, P.O. Box 9517, 2300 RA Leiden, The Netherlands

Coordination team member, Distributed System of Scientific Collections (
DiSSCo <http://dissco.eu/>)
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<http://www.gbif.org/>)
Regional representative for Europe, Biodiversity Information Standards
Organisation (TDWG <http://tdwg.org/>)
Chair Biodiversity Data Integration IG, Research Data Alliance (RDA
<http://www.rd-alliance.org/>)
Catalogue of Life Ambassador (CoL <http://www.catalogueoflife.org/>)

*ORCID*:  0000-0002-3090-1761 | *Linkedin*: *linkedin.com/in/wouteraddink/
<http://linkedin.com/in/wouteraddink/>*

*Twitter*: @wouter99999 | *Tel*: +31 (0) 71 751 9364





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