[Taxacom] Forcing ORCID on researchers

Dean Pentcheff pentcheff at gmail.com
Tue Dec 8 23:20:46 CST 2020


Like many of you, I suspect, I have a strong distaste for discussion based
on speculation when facts are easily obtainable.

But "easily", of course, depends on your background knowledge, which can be
regional. As an American, I happen to know that "non-profit" corporations
in the U.S. must file a "Form 990" tax return every year (and note that
"non-profit" is not a value judgement or a general description — it is a
particular taxation category of institutions under U.S. law).

Those filings are public, and they are easily available at
https://www.guidestar.org (a non-profit that aggregates information about
other non-profits). A quick check of ORCID's filings there indicates that
their revenues for these years were:
  2016: $4,201,686
  2017: $3,023,297
  2018: $3,581,407
For 2017 and 2018, nearly all of that comes from membership dues, as cited
on page 9 of the filings (https://orcid.org/about/membership and
https://orcid.org/members). In 2016, nearly $2M came from other sources
(which I am guessing are some of the early funders and sponsors:
https://orcid.org/about/community/sponsors).

ORCID is quite transparent about their governance structure:
https://orcid.org/about/what-is-orcid/governance (and yes, they post their
own tax Form 990s there as well).

Those with suspicions about the motivations behind ORCID should probably
contact their "Trust Working Group":
https://orcid.org/content/trust-working-group . At the least, review the
documents created by that group starting at:
https://orcid.org/about/trust/home

I hope that helps anyone with questions to find answers. Of course, I'm not
so naïve as to believe that everyone wants answers to their questions.

-Dean
-- 
Dean Pentcheff
pentcheff at gmail.com
pentcheff at nhm.org <dpentche at nhm.org>
https://research.nhm.org/disco



On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 10:25 AM Michael Heads via Taxacom <
taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:

> who pays for orcid? They're obviously spending a ton of money.
>
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 7:22 AM Tony Rees via Taxacom <
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> > Hi Carlos, all,
> >
> > Unlike Carlos I do not have a problem with OrcID (hi Carlos!) or other
> > identifier systems - in fact I use a range of them on the basis that each
> > has its own benefits, and I can live with any downsides... my views are
> > expressed more fully in a comment on one of Rod Page's iPhylo blog posts,
> > see
> >
> >
> https://iphylo.blogspot.com/2020/04/wikidata-and-bibliography-of-life-in.html
> > ,
> > where I wrote:
> > ---------------
> >
> > [One of my processes for personal data management is to] "put lists of my
> > publications on multiple externally hosted sites that specialise in this
> > stuff and expect to persist (NOT a personal website), using the LOCKSS
> > principle (Lots of Copies Keeps Stuff Safe), and keep the lists updated -
> > at present I use:
> >
> > -- Google Scholar http://scholar.google.com.a...
> > <
> >
> http://disq.us/url?url=http%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com.au%2Fcitations%3Fuser%3D3I7QbQQAAAAJ%3A6HFakquLPRSeDqyQwo3ZPn-MVnk&cuid=117200
> > >
> > -- ResearcherID: http://www.researcherid.com...
> > <
> >
> http://disq.us/url?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researcherid.com%2Frid%2FK-9837-2015%3AJmlZAxysE5tJoh8NtcapccydL2c&cuid=117200
> > >
> > -- OrcID http://orcid.org/0000-0003-...
> > <
> >
> http://disq.us/url?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1887-5211%3AO1Y_wVhf8eysyLVAKDMXYFq7lp8&cuid=117200
> > >
> > -- Researchgate https://www.researchgate.ne...
> > <
> >
> https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FTony_Rees2%2Fpublications%3AgBBOy3c-pJUslmGz4Y0WsTTo-nM&cuid=117200
> > >
> > -- academia.edu
> > <
> >
> http://disq.us/url?url=http%3A%2F%2Facademia.edu%3A2ondROJrCIzbBxAwJceGw__41yY&cuid=117200
> > >
> >  https://independent.academi...
> > <
> >
> https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Findependent.academia.edu%2FTonyRees2%3AHRIeX8IuXcFq0axTJ-KpUSkA6l4&cuid=117200
> > >
> >
> > ...this way there is at least a chance that a future interested person
> > might find them, via one of these routes."
> > ---------------
> >
> > I do not feel forced to use OrcID, it is something that I see of some
> value
> > to me and those that might be interested in discovering my work, either
> now
> > or after I have left the planet... But I appreciate that not everybody
> has
> > the same view on this.
> >
> > Regards to all - Tony
> >
> > Tony Rees, New South Wales, Australia
> > https://about.me/TonyRees
> > www.irmng.org
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 8 Dec 2020 at 05:04, Wouter Addink via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > A person name is not a persistent unique identifier, it is not unique
> > > enough and also not always persistent so you cannot compare them with
> an
> > > ORCID ID.
> > >
> > > Unique identifiers themselves are pretty harmless, but they enable
> > linking
> > > of data and that can have ethical issues.
> > >
> > >  A passport ID is needed to travel and ip addresses are needed to surf
> > the
> > > internet. Similarly a person identifier is needed in research to
> > identify a
> > > researcher. So far no problem but when passport id's, ip addresses and
> > > internet data are linked by a government things can get nasty.
> > >
> > > For ORCID id's I think the problem is not so big because it is not
> > directly
> > > possible to connect to a governmental person identifier like a passport
> > > number.
> > >
> > > But imagine a regime does not like publications about climate change
> and
> > > uses ORCID to force your organisation to fire you because they used
> ORCID
> > > to find out that you published about climate change and who you are
> > working
> > > for?
> > >
> > > Luckily you could hide these publications or your Organisation in ORCID
> > so
> > > you have at least some control. But this is not a problem of the
> > > identifiers but a problem of governments and regulation. Stopping to
> use
> > > passport id's, ip addresses or orcids is not a very workable solution.
> > >
> > > W.
> > >
> > > Op ma 7 dec. 2020 18:17 schreef Frank T. Krell via Taxacom <
> > > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Ethical implications of getting a unique identifier? You were forced
> by
> > > > your parents or your country of origin to have a name. It is somewhat
> > > > useful, isn't it?
> > > > Having a unique identifier is just a step further in the direction of
> > > > clarity: There are over 70 people called Carlos Muñoz on Research
> Gate,
> > > for
> > > > example. There is an even bigger problem with Chinese names, and
> China
> > is
> > > > now leading in output of scientific papers. Personal proper names are
> > not
> > > > unique. The problem gets inflated if journals (or authors) initialize
> > > their
> > > > first name. ORCID gives you the freedom to publish in a journal that
> > > > initializes your first name, or does not consider your middle names,
> > and
> > > > you are still identifiable.
> > > > The whole business of publication is bringing yourself into the
> public
> > > and
> > > > giving up your privacy to some extent. This is one aspect of our
> > > existence
> > > > as scientists.
> > > > Your passport has a unique number, too. Would you reject it and
> rather
> > > not
> > > > travel because it is forced onto you? That is your choice.
> > > > Unique identifiers are a good thing in science (and other aspects of
> > life
> > > > in society). There are lots of bad things to fight, but I wouldn't
> lose
> > > my
> > > > sleep about unique identifiers.
> > > > Frank
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dr. Frank-Thorsten Krell
> > > >
> > > > Senior Curator of Entomology, Editor-in-Chief Commissioner and
> > > Councillor,
> > > > International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature Department of
> > Zoology
> > > > Denver Museum of Nature & Science
> > > > 2001 Colorado Blvd
> > > > Denver, Colorado 80205-5798, U.S.A.
> > > > Frank.krell at dmns.org
> > > > Phone 303.370.8244
> > > > Fax 303.331.6492
> > > > https://www.dmns.org/science/zoology/staff/frank-krell/
> > > >
> > > > We are OPEN and can't wait to welcome you back! Escape to the Museum
> > and
> > > > play the day away in "The Art of the Brick" and "Dogs! A Science
> > > > Tail."  Special ticket required for each exhibition in addition to
> > timed
> > > > entry into the Museum.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> On Behalf Of
> Carlos
> > > > Alberto Martínez Muñoz via Taxacom
> > > > Sent: Monday, December 7, 2020 8:31 AM
> > > > To: Roger Hyam <RHyam at rbge.org.uk>
> > > > Cc: Taxa com <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Forcing ORCID on researchers
> > > >
> > > > What all this thread has confirmed is how easily the smartest people
> on
> > > > the planet can miss the ethical implications of their choices. Leaves
> > > > little hope for those of use that are not so smart.
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
> > > > Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
> > > > FI-20014 University of Turku
> > > > Finland
> > > > Myriatrix <http://myriatrix.myspecies.info/>
> > > > ResearchGate profile
> > > > <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carlos_Martinez-Munoz>
> > > > Myriapod Morphology and Evolution
> > > > <https://www.facebook.com/groups/205802113162102/>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > El lun, 7 dic 2020 a las 17:23, Roger Hyam (<RHyam at rbge.org.uk>)
> > > escribió:
> > > >
> > > > > Well folks I’m building a botanical system that requires an ORCID
> to
> > > > > login and all this thread has done is confirm I’ve made the right
> > > > decision.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Roger
> > > > >
> > > > > On 7 Dec 2020, at 14:38, Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz <
> > > > > biotemail at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Wouter,
> > > > > The ORCID initiative is not-for-profit, but the implementation is
> > not.
> > > > > ORCID has for-profit members paying membership fees and then 1)
> > > > > building for-profit tools on top of ORCID IDs and 2) making ORCID
> IDs
> > > > > mandatory in journals. Those tools and journals are then sold back
> to
> > > > > public institutions, priced with profit margins of up to 37%,
> higher
> > > > > than the profit margins of oil companies. That is why it is so
> > > > > counterproductive, expensive and unfair to turn anything into a
> > > > > standard when the full not-for-profit implementation cycle is far
> > from
> > > > > existing. In an ideal world, the full implementation cycle, with
> > ORCID
> > > > > expenses, tools and journals would be not-for-profit. Then I would
> > > > > have no ethical problem in getting an ORCID.
> > > > > Forceful adoption happens when the institutions buying a tool get
> an
> > > > > ORCID-based added service in a pricing bundle that they cannot
> refuse
> > > > > unless they refuse the whole package. Forceful adoption happens
> when
> > > > > all or most of the journals where one can publish in demand an
> ORCID.
> > > > > If you cannot see that using and promoting ORCID is not ethically
> > > > > neutral, then you should stop doing both things.
> > > > >
> > > > > By the way, I don't expect you to easily find the footprints of
> > > > > Elsevier, Nature Publishing and Thomson Reuters in nowadays ORCID.
> > You
> > > > > will have to look deeper into the past, even before ORCID was
> > founded.
> > > > > Have fun with your reading!
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > >
> > > > > Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
> > > > > Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
> > > > > FI-20014 University of Turku
> > > > > Finland
> > > > > Myriatrix
> > > > > <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmyri
> > > > > atrix.myspecies.info%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > %7C42a501606
> > > > >
> > f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C6
> > > > >
> > 37429487178399690%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoi
> > > > >
> > V2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=TfsbmT7wrvRC%2BHu1
> > > > > B9DBtxE%2FgaQUUTsFU%2FjVjunxhMM%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > > ResearchGate profile
> > > > > <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww
> > > > > .researchgate.net
> > %2Fprofile%2FCarlos_Martinez-Munoz&data=04%7C01%7CRHy
> > > > > am%40rbge.org.uk
> > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7
> > > > >
> > b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178409688%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8
> > > > >
> > eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1
> > > > >
> > 000&sdata=wz%2FSc%2F6nWcXrARq%2BHlPQ7ERGJtEz%2BtkbDxF2%2Fq1KAWU%3D&res
> > > > > erved=0>
> > > > > Myriapod Morphology and Evolution
> > > > > <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww
> > > > > .facebook.com
> > %2Fgroups%2F205802113162102%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbg
> > > > > e.org.uk
> > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74
> > > > >
> > 158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178409688%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoi
> > > > >
> > MC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdat
> > > > > a=l6r9ffI2PTzQA4RycdkWZNfh7nfscZPmBOis2uC29Aw%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > El lun, 7 dic 2020 a las 16:19, Wouter Addink
> > > > > (<wouter.addink at naturalis.nl>)
> > > > > escribió:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Hi Carlos,
> > > > >> I did not say that orcid ids do not cost money, I said they do not
> > > > >> cost you as a researcher money. Every persistent identifier system
> > > > costs money.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I am no financial expert, but their tax statements are online and
> it
> > > > >> looks to me like the main income is from membership fees, orcid
> has
> > > > >> over
> > > > >> 1000 members. Most of them probably universities. There is income
> > > > >> from grants and sponsorship too and elsevier is one of 17 platinum
> > > > sponsors.
> > > > >> Most of these sponsorships are only foundational loans though.
> > > > >> Springer and Plos are in the board, I do not see Elsevier there,
> but
> > > > >> I think publishers should as stakeholders be part of the board
> (but
> > > > >> not majority). According to orcid bylaws the board is required to
> > > > >> have a majority of individuals from non-profit members and the
> board
> > > > >> always includes 2 elected researchers. So I see nothing in the
> > > > >> funding or governance model that worries me and I see no evidence
> > of a
> > > > major role from elsevier either.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Kind regards
> > > > >> Wouter
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Op ma 7 dec. 2020 14:23 schreef Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz <
> > > > >> biotemail at gmail.com>:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Hi Rod,
> > > > >>> "*Rather, I think the main drivers come from the publishing
> > > > >>> industry, funders, and academia, who see value in being able to
> > > > >>> identify people, and hence accurately measure their academic
> > > > >>> contributions (be it authoring, reviewing, getting grants,
> etc.).*"
> > > > >>> I agree about the main drivers and I will comment on this. To
> save
> > > > >>> me some time, please introduce to this list the ORCID funding
> > model,
> > > > >>> with the history of early funders and today's main funders.
> That's
> > > > >>> where we should start.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> "You mention “personal freedom”, it’s not clear to me how your
> > > > >>> freedom is affected by having an ORCID. Is it the ORCID you
> object
> > > > >>> to, or the notion of having an identifier at all?" My freedom
> > > > >>> includes the freedom to choose having an identifier or not, and
> my
> > > > >>> freedom includes which identifiers from all those available I am
> > > > >>> going to choose. My English is not good, but I expected that it
> was
> > > > >>> enough to convey those ideas. An increasing number of journals
> are
> > > > >>> forcing researchers to have identifiers, and to specifically have
> > > > >>> ORCID. It is pretty significant when megajournals or publishers
> do
> > > > >>> that. As the snowball effect increases, we are left with the
> option
> > > > >>> of having an identifier (and only ORCID!) or not having it and
> not
> > > > >>> publishing anymore. In this context, preservation of freedom
> means
> > > > >>> to recommend good practices and to have the technical capability
> of
> > > > >>> implementing them, but freedom is not preserved by forcing
> adoption
> > > > >>> of a practice which is not essential to the scientific content of
> > the
> > > > publications.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Dear Roger,
> > > > >>> "*for example, Research Gate (which you rate so highly as to have
> > in
> > > > >>> your email signature)*". Having a platform in an email signature
> > > > >>> does not mean that there is endorsement to that platform. That is
> > > > >>> your personal interpretation. I was free to choose whether to
> have
> > > > >>> RG or not, and even more, I also could choose and have an
> Academia
> > > > >>> profile as well. No journal has demanded me to get any of those
> > > > >>> accounts. Moreover, I previously had a Publons account in my
> email
> > > > >>> signature. After Publons was bought by Clarivate Analytics, I
> > > > >>> deleted my Publons account and demanded Clarivate to wipe off all
> > my
> > > > data.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Dear Wouter,
> > > > >>> About the freedom of choice, see the snowball effect above. About
> > > > >>> the ORCID not costing money, you are very naive if you believe
> > that.
> > > > >>> Don't you think that I haven't noticed Elsevier's long tentacles
> > > > >>> behind ORCID, and don't you think that I haven't noticed how they
> > > > >>> squeeze money from whole countries by implementing ORCID into
> their
> > > > >>> service package bundle, including Pure. I believe that I don't
> need
> > > > >>> to remind anyone here that Elsevier makes more profit than oil
> > > > >>> companies and that it is well-known for its abusive pricing and
> > > > >>> bullying behavior. We are all paying for ORCID, and we pay two
> > > > >>> times. First, we pay with our work, manually curating and linking
> > > > >>> our research to us, data which publishers happily collect. Then,
> we
> > > > >>> pay a second time, when publishers squeeze the cost of ORCID
> > > > >>> implementation out of us, and with astonishing profits. I am not
> > > going
> > > > to be one more researcher supporting Elsevier's statistics. Thank
> you!
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Cheers,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
> > > > >>> Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
> > > > >>> FI-20014 University of Turku
> > > > >>> Finland
> > > > >>> Myriatrix
> > > > >>> <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmy
> > > > >>> riatrix.myspecies.info%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > %7C42a50
> > > > >>>
> > 1606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7
> > > > >>>
> > C0%7C637429487178419675%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAi
> > > > >>>
> > LCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=eAMDYpcu
> > > > >>> B3dEXEmqREe5CJXjuqas%2FblUBjA4EK9nmIQ%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > >>> ResearchGate profile
> > > > >>> <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fw
> > > > >>> ww.researchgate.net
> > %2Fprofile%2FCarlos_Martinez-Munoz&data=04%7C01%7
> > > > >>> CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb0017
> > > > >>>
> > 5e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178419675%7CUnknown%7CTWFp
> > > > >>>
> > bGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6
> > > > >>>
> > Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=7fYQMcW1IWkSdZOcGQXyw9j8DWZJe0zfglLEOUfkZT8%3D&r
> > > > >>> eserved=0>
> > > > >>> Myriapod Morphology and Evolution
> > > > >>> <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fw
> > > > >>> ww.facebook.com
> > %2Fgroups%2F205802113162102%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%4
> > > > >>> 0rbge.org.uk
> > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7
> > > > >>>
> > b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178429673%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8
> > > > >>>
> > eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7
> > > > >>>
> > C1000&sdata=H1as0GCDdXbo4uQcwMsBh5H0ppX%2FlU5Qi0g3AV%2B0h%2F0%3D&res
> > > > >>> erved=0>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> El lun, 7 dic 2020 a las 14:38, Roderic Page (<
> > > > >>> Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>) escribió:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> Hi Carlos,
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Just to unpack this a little, ORCID isn’t anything to do with
> > > > >>>> biodiversity informatics as such, its scope is all academic
> > > > >>>> publishing. You will see the requirement for an ORCID appearing
> in
> > > > >>>> many journals, not just Zootaxa. See for example
> > > > >>>>
> > https://orcid.org/content/requiring-orcid-publication-workflows-ope
> > > > >>>> n-letter
> > > > >>>> <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2F
> > > > >>>> orcid.org
> > > >
> > >
> >
> %2Fcontent%2Frequiring-orcid-publication-workflows-open-letter&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%
> > > > 40rbge.org.uk
> > >
> >
> %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178429673%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=CoLrp%2BUeMeSkRvxLgW5m99uRUcPjqxWdVC4yWu85dUw%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > So I think this is an inevitable trend no matter where you chose to
> > > publish.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> You mention “personal freedom”, it’s not clear to me how your
> > > > >>>> freedom is affected by having an ORCID. Is it the ORCID you
> object
> > > > >>>> to, or the notion of having an identifier at all?
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Just to be clear, I’m genuinely interested in how people view
> > > > >>>> ORCIDs (and other identifiers). And I think that the reason
> ORCIDs
> > > > >>>> exist is not primarily for the benefit of individual
> researchers,
> > > > >>>> although one could argue that it is useful to be able to clearly
> > > > >>>> identify yourself to avoid being conflated with another
> > researcher,
> > > > >>>> and having your academic CV automatically generated.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Rather, I think the main drivers come from the publishing
> > industry,
> > > > >>>> funders, and academia, who see value in being able to identify
> > > > >>>> people, and hence accurately measure their academic
> contributions
> > > > >>>> (be it authoring, reviewing, getting grants, etc.). People like
> me
> > > > >>>> who work in trying to link data together tend to view ORCIDs
> > > > >>>> positively (sorting out the mess of people names in databases
> will
> > > > >>>> be much easier if everyone had - and used - an ORCID). I
> > appreciate
> > > > that not everyone sees them this way.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Regards,
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Rod
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> On 7 Dec 2020, at 11:58, Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz <
> > > > >>>> biotemail at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Hi Rod,
> > > > >>>> There have been many irregularities in expanding ORCID and
> getting
> > > > >>>> it adopted. Some have been discussed here, some I have seen
> > myself.
> > > > >>>> I have no time to discuss them all here. In the spotlight, there
> > is
> > > > >>>> this paragraph by Wouter Addink, which was really deplorable and
> > > > >>>> which, at least for me, closed ORCID as an option:
> > > > >>>> "*I am also amazed to see though, that there are still many
> > authors
> > > > >>>> not using their ORCID iD in OA publications or maintain their
> > ORCID
> > > > >>>> iD without any public information about their publications. I
> > think
> > > > >>>> there might even still be researchers who do not have an ORCID
> iD,
> > > > >>>> although I don't know any.*" Well, Wouter, hello there!
> > > > >>>> Down to the core, Rod: This is a matter of personal freedom.
> > > > >>>> Whoever forces an ID on researchers misses that. And whoever
> > forces
> > > > >>>> ONE ID above all others misses that two times. There is more in
> > > > >>>> this world than the narrow field of biodiversity informatics.
> > > > >>>> Cheers,
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
> > > > >>>> Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
> > > > >>>> FI-20014 University of Turku
> > > > >>>> Finland
> > > > >>>> Myriatrix
> > > > >>>> <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fm
> > > > >>>> yriatrix.myspecies.info%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > %7C42a
> > > > >>>>
> > 501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C
> > > > >>>>
> > 0%7C0%7C637429487178429673%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAw
> > > > >>>>
> > MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=ac4
> > > > >>>> gjrlxYk54MoMc9ZDAowAXdXrSejUnVfYRikr5D4o%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > >>>> ResearchGate profile
> > > > >>>> <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2F
> > > > >>>> www.researchgate.net
> > %2Fprofile%2FCarlos_Martinez-Munoz&data=04%7C01
> > > > >>>> %7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb0
> > > > >>>>
> > 0175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178439669%7CUnknown%7C
> > > > >>>>
> > TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJ
> > > > >>>>
> > XVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=UdekM%2FknnKnabfnpcs1nX4g9o9DM5ou%2BKfDsqH
> > > > >>>> wx8ec%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > >>>> Myriapod Morphology and Evolution
> > > > >>>> <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2F
> > > > >>>> www.facebook.com
> > %2Fgroups%2F205802113162102%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam
> > > > >>>> %40rbge.org.uk
> > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b
> > > > >>>>
> > 7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178439669%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZs
> > > > >>>>
> > b3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0
> > > > >>>>
> > %3D%7C1000&sdata=wpyrCxtuOLYKtvr8PiBaORuuxLJ1ss0e8LLWPoOl6Q8%3D&res
> > > > >>>> erved=0>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> El lun, 7 dic 2020 a las 13:41, Roderic Page (<
> > > > >>>> Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>) escribió:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>> Hi Carlos,
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> I’m curious as to why you object to getting an ORCID? Is it an
> > > > >>>>> objection to identifier sin general, or ORCID in particular?
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Regards,
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Rod
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> On 7 Dec 2020, at 11:36, Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz via
> > Taxacom
> > > > >>>>> < taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Dear Taxacomers,
> > > > >>>>> I have been informed today by a co-author that Zootaxa has
> > decided
> > > > >>>>> to be strict and to enforce ORCID for all authors.
> > > > >>>>> For all you journal editors and owners in this list: You are
> not
> > > > >>>>> welcome to force an identifier on researchers, and even less to
> > > > >>>>> force ONE identifier above all others, without alternatives.
> > Also,
> > > > >>>>> it is useless. You might force researchers to have an ID at the
> > > > >>>>> time of publication, but you cannot force researchers to keep
> it.
> > > > >>>>> I will make sure that my ORCID gets wiped off after
> publication.
> > > > >>>>> And every time you force me to get one, the same will happen
> > > > >>>>> again. As the platform says, getting an ORCID just takes a
> > minute.
> > > > >>>>> Anthony Gill previously wrote: "My take is ORCID can take a
> > flying
> > > > >>>>> jump at itself." Couldn't agree more.
> > > > >>>>> Cheers,
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
> > > > >>>>> Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
> > > > >>>>> FI-20014 University of Turku
> > > > >>>>> Finland
> > > > >>>>> Myriatrix <http://myriatrix.myspecies.info/
> > > > >>>>> <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
> > > > >>>>> myriatrix.myspecies.info%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > %7C4
> > > > >>>>>
> > 2a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4
> > > > >>>>>
> > %7C0%7C0%7C637429487178449663%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4w
> > > > >>>>>
> > LjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdat
> > > > >>>>> a=gYA83w6ok7p7RTgQjKbgcEkFBw9Rn%2B5bZn4FuJnMzPg%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > >>>>> >
> > > > >>>>> ResearchGate profile
> > > > >>>>> <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carlos_Martinez-Munoz
> > > > >>>>> <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2
> > > > >>>>> Fwww.researchgate.net
> > %2Fprofile%2FCarlos_Martinez-Munoz&data=04%7C
> > > > >>>>> 01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63
> > > > >>>>>
> > bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178449663%7CUnknow
> > > > >>>>>
> > n%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haW
> > > > >>>>>
> > wiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=KK7rqXjGye5FQTLjv4zV%2BufHRnKOmVN%2B
> > > > >>>>> oKl4vbc5wp8%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > >>>>> >
> > > > >>>>> Myriapod Morphology and Evolution
> > > > >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/groups/205802113162102/
> > > > >>>>> <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2
> > > > >>>>> Fwww.facebook.com
> > %2Fgroups%2F205802113162102%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHy
> > > > >>>>> am%40rbge.org.uk
> > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e
> > > > >>>>>
> > 46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178459658%7CUnknown%7CTWFp
> > > > >>>>>
> > bGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVC
> > > > >>>>>
> > I6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=rAx3lxLm9wYkgKD%2ByoeeIYXvX4E3ki6O5STfaH3UrY
> > > > >>>>> Y%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > >>>>> >
> > > > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>> Taxacom Mailing List
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to:
> > > > >>>>> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu For list information; to subscribe
> or
> > > > unsubscribe, visit:
> > > > >>>>> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > > >>>>> <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
> > > > >>>>> mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > %2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=0
> > > > >>>>> 4%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7C
> > > > >>>>>
> > bb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178459658%7CUn
> > > > >>>>>
> > known%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik
> > > > >>>>>
> > 1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=weZ%2ByIjHK2317WgQqu5hHlJcmi6HX5
> > > > >>>>> Purqr3zAShrAA%3D&reserved=0> You can reach the person managing
> > the
> > > > >>>>> list at:
> > > > >>>>> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > > >>>>> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > > > >>>>> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > > >>>>> <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
> > > > >>>>> taxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > %7C42a50
> > > > >>>>>
> > 1606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0
> > > > >>>>>
> > %7C0%7C637429487178469649%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAw
> > > > >>>>>
> > MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=KT
> > > > >>>>> tKhndeYGo5FEZzxD70Nr4AcWozdNWmRdbeuwEoGD8%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years,
> > > > >>>>> 1987-2020.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >>>>> Roderic Page
> > > > >>>>> Professor of Taxonomy
> > > > >>>>> Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative
> Medicine
> > > > >>>>> College of Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences Graham Kerr
> > > > >>>>> Building University of Glasgow Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Email:  Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk
> > > > >>>>> Tel:  +44 141 330 4778
> > > > >>>>> Skype:  rdmpage
> > > > >>>>> Facebook:  http://www.facebook.com/rdmpage
> > > > >>>>> <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
> > > > >>>>> www.facebook.com%2Frdmpage&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > %7C42
> > > > >>>>>
> > a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%
> > > > >>>>>
> > 7C0%7C0%7C637429487178469649%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wL
> > > > >>>>>
> > jAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata
> > > > >>>>> =8X1E6P6B%2BVAW4Tpc7nDDN8SDK9f41gNd8nsW3L6pgyM%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > >>>>> LinkedIn:  https://uk.linkedin.com/in/rdmpage
> > > > >>>>> <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2
> > > > >>>>> Fuk.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Frdmpage&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%
> > 40rbge.org.uk
> > > > >>>>>
> > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e
> > > > >>>>>
> > 4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178479648%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoi
> > > > >>>>>
> > MC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&
> > > > >>>>>
> sdata=FSAONn5ROpPIdKfwYiHkudmNOxBSgw9FkQBGzRqAAeU%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > >>>>> Twitter:  https://twitter.com/rdmpage
> > > > >>>>> <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2
> > > > >>>>> Ftwitter.com%2Frdmpage&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > %7C42a501
> > > > >>>>>
> > 606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%
> > > > >>>>>
> > 7C0%7C637429487178479648%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwM
> > > > >>>>>
> > DAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=fS4
> > > > >>>>> ruaEKW6VLmntErW0PJwmJHeQgrq0pqcH5bA0dE9Q%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > >>>>> Blog:  https://iphylo.blogspot.com
> > > > >>>>> <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2
> > > > >>>>> Fiphylo.blogspot.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > %7C42a50
> > > > >>>>>
> > 1606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0
> > > > >>>>>
> > %7C0%7C637429487178489643%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAw
> > > > >>>>>
> > MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Lq
> > > > >>>>> 2nhAIM%2F%2FKlp0smcCZS6aMDB7fAFPa2oOa7MQt0vko%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > >>>>> ORCID:  https://orcid.org/0000-0002-7101-9767
> > > > >>>>> <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2
> > > > >>>>>
> > Forcid.org%2F0000-0002-7101-9767&data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.u
> > > > >>>>>
> > k%7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158
> > > > >>>>>
> > e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178489643%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjo
> > > > >>>>>
> > iMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000
> > > > >>>>>
> > &sdata=5fxelIjeqiO%2F6S%2BBPKaQn%2BlWsY0eE2qZwoGhPSKWyFg%3D&reserv
> > > > >>>>> ed=0>
> > > > >>>>> Citations:
> > > > >>>>> https://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAAAAAJ
> > > > >>>>> <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2
> > > > >>>>> Fscholar.google.co.uk
> > %2Fcitations%3Fhl%3Den%26user%3D4Z5WABAAAAAJ&
> > > > >>>>> data=04%7C01%7CRHyam%40rbge.org.uk
> > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc
> > > > >>>>>
> > 7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e46b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C63742948717849963
> > > > >>>>>
> > 2%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJB
> > > > >>>>>
> > TiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=kQVKgI8bCYHYsH5afgjH6QtzqK
> > > > >>>>> tccVqAMOcn8nkJDW4%3D&reserved=0> ResearchGate
> > > > >>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Roderic_Page
> > > > >>>>> <
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2
> > > > >>>>> Fwww.researchgate.net
> > %2Fprofile%2FRoderic_Page&data=04%7C01%7CRHya
> > > > >>>>> m%40rbge.org.uk
> > %7C42a501606f81410216ca08d89abdc7a3%7Cbb63bb00175e4
> > > > >>>>>
> > 6b7b7b3bc74158e4fd4%7C0%7C0%7C637429487178499632%7CUnknown%7CTWFpb
> > > > >>>>>
> > GZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI
> > > > >>>>>
> > 6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=SSf320cigrMEKqpi1l3KWy0FpG8SWNKBVFk99hGrJbw%3
> > > > >>>>> D&reserved=0>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >
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> > For
> > > > list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
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> > > > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu The Taxacom email archive back to
> > 1992
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> > > >
> > > > Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years,
> > > 1987-2020.
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > >
> > > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > > > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > >
> > > > Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years,
> > > 1987-2020.
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > >
> > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >
> > > Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years,
> > 1987-2020.
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years,
> 1987-2020.
> >
>
>
> --
> Dunedin, New Zealand.
>
> My books:
>
> *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
> Raton FL. 2017.
>
> https://www.routledge.com/Biogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand/Heads/p/book/9781498751872
>
>
> *Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis*. Cambridge University
> Press, Cambridge. 2014. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028
>
>
> *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California Press,
> Berkeley. 2012. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968
>
>
> *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
> New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
> http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC
> <
> http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC&dq=panbiogeography&source=gbs_navlinks_s
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> http://taxacom.markmail.org
>
> Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years, 1987-2020.
>


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