[Taxacom] Molecular evidence (in 2017) supports my 2014 theory about rafting killifish

Kenneth Kinman kinman at hotmail.com
Thu Dec 24 08:35:35 CST 2020


Hi Jason,
         Thanks for the input Jason.   Yes, the time calibrated phylogeny (from molecular sequences) in the article.  And also early-branching Kryptolebias known to be capable of surviving out of water for up to 66 days and spending much of their time while out of the water in logs and cavities of trees (plenty of those in such rafts).  And I was even more convinced by their unusual reproductive abilities (hermaphroditism and even self-fertilization).  Seems like the best of all vertebrate candidates for trans-Atlantic dispersal in the Eocene-Oligocene time frame.
                         --------------Ken

________________________________
From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> on behalf of JF Mate via Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2020 10:54 PM
To: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>; Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Molecular evidence (in 2017) supports my 2014 theory about rafting killifish

I can't speak for Ken nor be sure that my interpretation is correct, but if
I had to guess, then I would say that in the case of the killifish, the
evidence for postvicariance dispersal would be in the time calibrated
phylogeny and the pattern being consistent with previous studies detecting
a similar pattern and timing. If am wrong in your interpretation Ken please
let me know.

Best and Merry Christmas to all

Jason

On Wed, 23 Dec 2020, 01:50 John Grehan, <calabar.john at gmail.com> wrote:

> Jason,
>
> Thanks for the paper. I would be happy to do that, but first I need Ken to
> specify what in the paper he sees as constituting evidence. Otherwise I am
> just left guessing. Once Ken specifies what particular items presented in
> the paper constitute evidence I would be happy to comment. I have noticed
> that Ken tends to cite papers as evidence for is views, but rarely
> specifies what within qualifies as evidence. I hope in this case he will do
> that for the purposes of discussion.
>
> Cheers,
>
> John Grehan
>
> On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 9:37 AM JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Here is a copy John. Your line of argumention would be more constructive
>> if you could provide a critique of their work and why you think their
>> conclusions are wrong. That way it would be easier to understand your
>> perspective.
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> On Tue, 22 Dec 2020, 07:07 John Grehan via Taxacom, <
>> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Ken. See below
>>>
>>>  They say: "Our estimates indicate that divergence between the clades
>>> comprising New World and Old World aplocheiloids occurred during the
>>> Eocene, about 50 Mya, much more recent than the Gondwanan fragmentation
>>> scenario assumed in previous studies."
>>>
>>> So they say. But what is the evidence? Ken, all you ever seem to do is
>>> post
>>> assertions, never specifying the evidence.
>>>
>>>  The molecular evidence in 2017 supports my theory.
>>>
>>> What is the molecular evidence?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John Grehan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 3:40 PM Kenneth Kinman via Taxacom <
>>> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hi All,
>>> >       Rivulidae (a.k.a. Cynolebiini) are New World killifish once
>>> thought
>>> > to have arisen in the Cretaceous before South America fully separated
>>> from
>>> > Africa.  However, molecular evidence in 2017 indicates they arose in
>>> the
>>> > Eocene.   They say: "Our estimates indicate that divergence between the
>>> > clades comprising New World and Old World aplocheiloids occurred
>>> during the
>>> > Eocene, about 50 Mya, much more recent than the Gondwanan fragmentation
>>> > scenario assumed in previous studies. This estimation is nearly
>>> synchronous
>>> > to estimated splits involving other South American and African
>>> vertebrate
>>> > clades, which have been explained by transoceanic dispersal through an
>>> > ancient Atlantic island chain during the Palaeogene."
>>> >       This makes me quite happy since I brought up this possibility
>>> back
>>> > in 2014, in a post here on Taxacom entitled: transoceanic "rafting"
>>> fish
>>> > (great candidate).
>>> >       The early branching genus Kryptolebias just happens to be a great
>>> > candidate for a fish that could disperse on a raft of vegetation from
>>> > Africa to South America:   (1) It's not only very tolerant of salt
>>> water,
>>> > but also and more importantly (2) it can survive out of water for
>>> weeks at
>>> > a time (66 days in one case).  (3) And guess where Kryptolebias
>>> marmoratus
>>> > spends much of its time while out of the water----in logs and cavities
>>> of
>>> > trees (which would be the main structural components of a large
>>> > transoceanic raft).
>>> >          Those are the three things I thought of offhand which pointed
>>> to
>>> > possible trans-Atlantic dispersal.  But then I began wondering about
>>> yet
>>> > another strange thing about Kryptolebias fish.  They often exhibit
>>> various
>>> > types of hermaphroditism, and even its most extreme form
>>> > (self-fertilization, which is apparently absent in vertebrates except
>>> for
>>> > Kryptolebias).  So just a few of these fish (or even a single
>>> individual)
>>> > could have established a population on another continent.   The
>>> molecular
>>> > evidence in 2017 supports my theory.
>>> >
>>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1055790317300386?casa_token=ONKSbcnOLNEAAAAA:roWXxXgD1F0NqnWh9fozphZ4BbyAngOtCQwxXkyr552h7rNz1M366R2yniah-HK5hDFbRaaV
>>> >
>>> >                                   ------------------Ken
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >
>>> >
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>>
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