[Taxacom] FW: A nomen nudum in Bombus

Rob Smissen SmissenR at landcareresearch.co.nz
Wed Jun 2 05:04:46 CDT 2021


Hi y'all
Not wanting to join the substantive debate, which may indeed have become unnecessarily polarised, but none the less.
Stephen, you wrote
" We simply need to note that TECHNICALLY, the name is unavailable, in much the same way that I think botanists do for their nom. illeg. Names"
Acknowledging that you mitigated your speculation appropriately and it is not critical to your wider point but I do think you misunderstand the botanical nom. Ileg.
An illegitimate name is either a later homonym or a superfluous name (one which included a validly published name in its publication).
I don't think that a botanist would use such a name while acknowledging its nom. Ileg. Status. Its conserve or replace.
Love and peace
Rob

-----Original Message-----
From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> On Behalf Of Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom
Sent: Wednesday, 2 June 2021 9:27 PM
To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu; Douglas Yanega <dyanega at gmail.com>; Andrew Whittington <awhittington at flyevidence.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] A nomen nudum in Bombus

 Andrew,Curiously, you have read much into what I wrote which simply isn't there! I'm somewhat baffled by that! Obviously, the name should not have been proposed in a non-Code-compliant way to begin with, that much is a given. But it was so proposed, so I'm simply talking about what to do about it after the fact. I'm not saying anything to discourage anyone from being Code compliant! I'm simply saying that we can continue to use an unavailable name as if it were valid, without any real problems. The alternative is to pretend that the name doesn't exist, which is ludicrous! We simply need to note that TECHNICALLY, the name is unavailable, in much the same way that I think botanists do for their nom. illeg. names. What possible reason could there be to not use a name for an otherwise undescribed species, just because that name is technically unavailable? One hopes that, at some point, sooner or later, that name will be validated and will become the "official" name for the species. There is simply no problem here!Cheers, Stephen
    On Wednesday, 2 June 2021, 09:14:17 pm NZST, Andrew Whittington <awhittington at flyevidence.co.uk> wrote:

 #yiv8196109872 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}I'm with Doug on this one Stephen, Of course nobody can prevent use of the name after it has been proposed - but you entirely miss the point that the name should not have been published without proper adherence to the ICZN protocols in the first place.
These are not pointless technicalities of the code, but rather lack of adherence to a set of agreed principles that have been developed by the scientific community to serve a very clear purpose. What scientist do and what they should do are clearly two different things and we should be encouraging adherence to the protocols, not dodging around them for convenience.
Kind regards,Andrew
====o0o====‚Äč
Andrew E WhittingtonConsultant Entomologist, PhD, FRES MCSFSZootaxa Editor: Diptera & small orders of insectsZooNova Entomology Editor
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From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> on behalf of Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Sent: 02 June 2021 03:16
To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>; Douglas Yanega <dyanega at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] A nomen nudum in Bombus Well, that's about what I would expect from you Doug - a completely irrational opinion! Names like Bombus incognitus carry with them useful scientific data, derived from the publication in which they were technically an unavailable name. So, your view, if I understand it, would prevent anyone using the name Bombus incognitus, except perhaps by way of a note that this name has been used in publications, but is technically unavailable. My view, rather, is that we can just use the name, in the usual way, until such time as it gets validated. This is what happens in reality - does anyone remember reality? - for names which are unavailable for more subtle reasons, which nobody may even notice until well down the track. I'm not trying to undermine the ICZN at all, I'm just trying to reconcile it with the reality of what scientists do, and minimise disruption caused by pointless little technicalities of the Code.Cheers, Stephen
    On Wednesday, 2 June 2021, 11:48:38 am NZST, Douglas Yanega via Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:

 On 6/1/21 2:56 PM, Stephen Thorpe wrote:
> For unavailable names like Bombus incognitus, for example, I recommend
> the following:
> Assuming that they refer to a good species without any other name
> available, use the unavailable name as if it were the valid name for
> the taxon, until such time as someone validates the name
> nomenclaturally. Any such validation should use the original name,
> i.e. Bombus incognitus, rather than disruptively coin a different
> name. Of course, if the species is inadvertently named again as new,
> witha different name, then Bombus incognitus will be superseded by the
> new name, except if the name Bombus incognitus has already gained wide
> usage, in which case an application for conservation of the name would
> be appropriate. It must be remembered that many names in current usage
> are unavailable for somewhat less obvious reasons than Bombus
> incognitus, e.g. lack of specified type depository, etc. It is far
> more sensible just to continue using them as if they were valid, until
> such time as any nomenclatural problems can be resolved (and there is
> really no hurry or necessity)
>
I disagree with essentially everything you have suggested above, and strongly suggest that others here learn from you exactly what NOT to do.
It's like you are actively seeking to undermine the principles of the ICZN, by making proposals that go directly against what the Code specifically tells people they should do.

Give it a rest, please,

--
Doug Yanega      Dept. of Entomology      Entomology Research Museum Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92521-0314    skype: dyanega
phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)
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