[Taxacom] A nomen nudum in Bombus

Thomas Pape tpape at snm.ku.dk
Thu Jun 3 05:31:58 CDT 2021


I am happy that everybody agrees on the importance of following the ICodeZN.
It sometimes happens that non-compliant names are published, and by that they gain existence. We can (and should) encourage the authors to remedy the situation in a new publication, but we cannot make an already published nomen nudum or otherwise unavailable name 'go away'.

The question is how to best approach such situations (1) when referring back to that first occurrence and (2) when dealing with the taxon until a Code-compliant name is available.

Any listing or other use of an unavailable name should clearly indicate its status as such. This is routinely done in catalogues, but it can be done in any other publication as well. 

Taking the current example, this could be done like this:

Bombus 'incognitus' (Christmas et al. 2021; unavailable name) at the first occurrence, and in the following use Bombus 'incognitus'.

/Thomas

-----Original Message-----
From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> On Behalf Of Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom
Sent: 3. juni 2021 10:58
To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu; Roland Bergman-Sun <kotatsu.no.leo at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] A nomen nudum in Bombus

 Well, it has no greater downsides than for any name change
    On Thursday, 3 June 2021, 08:23:45 pm NZST, Roland Bergman-Sun via Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:  
 
 Translation:
Attaching scientific information to unavailable names that may be changed at any time has no conceivable downsides, so it's all fine.

Cheers,

On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 4:12 PM Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz> wrote:
>
> Andrew,
> I respectfully disagree. Code compliance is preferable but not vital. There is bad science on both sides, i.e. code compliant and code non-compliant, and good science on both sides. If a name can be unambiguously linked to a species, then we should use it, even if it is an unavailable name on a technicality.
> I kind of get it that you are overplaying the problems associated with Code noncompliance so as to discourage people from sloppy nomenclature, but that doesn't change the fact that there are no serious problems associated with using an unavailable name as if it were valid.
> Cheers, Stephen
>
> On Thursday, 3 June 2021, 07:58:30 pm NZST, Andrew Whittington <awhittington at flyevidence.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Stephen,
>
> just doesn't really matter if it ends up taking a while
>
> Well, actually, it does matter. Maybe not to you - but then you are consistently not listening to the numerous members of this forum that have explained why.
>
> The name is currently not code compliant and there is time to fix it before publication. Not doing so does not mean the name should be used until sometime in the future if/when it gets fixed. It means it should not be used and is unacceptable.
>
> If we follow your method, then the future will be littered with names that are not code compliant because authors feel that they can "get away with it" given that some taxonomist in the future will come along and remedy the bad science that has been propagated through non-code compliance. It suggests that the code "doesn't really matter".
>
> If authors wish to promote new names, then the actions leading to the use of those names need to be code compliant, otherwise we may as well tear the code up right now.
>
> Kind regards,
> Andrew
>
> ====o0o====
> Andrew E Whittington
> Consultant Entomologist, PhD, FRES MCSFS Zootaxa Editor: Diptera & 
> small orders of insects ZooNova Entomology Editor
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>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> on behalf of 
> Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Sent: 03 June 2021 04:19
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>; Roland 
> Bergman-Sun <kotatsu.no.leo at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] A nomen nudum in Bombus
>
> Roland,I don't disagree, except that if it does take a while to get 
>fixed, then that shouldn't stop us from using the name as if it were 
>valid (and by that I recommend flagging it as unavailable, while still 
>using it). The difference between an available name and an unavailable 
>name makes little or no difference in practice. So, by all means 
>encourage people to fix the problem in timely fashion, but it just 
>doesn't really matter if it ends up taking a while to get fixed.Cheers, 
>Stephen
>    On Thursday, 3 June 2021, 02:19:59 pm NZST, Roland Bergman-Sun via Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:
>
>  Recommending people to treat unavailable names as if they were  
>available *is* encouraging bad taxonomic practice.
> Asserting that this is okay because someone might make the name  
>available in the future is encouraging people to attach further  
>scientific data to a name that may not be used in the future.
> If attaching scientific data to a name that may not be used in the  
>future is a problem, then encouraging people to do so is bad taxonomic  
>practice.
>
> My suggestion was and remains:
> If the existence of this nomen nudum is a (potential) problem for 
> researchers in the field, there may still be time to alert the 
> authors/editors and have them amend the manuscript to make the name 
> available, since it is still only a preprint.
> To which can be added:
> If the preprint cannot be further modified for some reason, and the 
> existence of this nomen nudum is a (potential) problem in the field, 
> then the authors should be encouraged to make the name available as 
> soon as possible, before attaching further scientific data to a name 
> that may be replaced in the future.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 4:45 AM Stephen Thorpe 
> <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz> wrote:
> >
> > Roland,
> > You are still not making much sense. As I already stated, I am not trying to discourage the fixing of the problem. I am not trying to encourage bad nomenclatural practice either. I am simply trying to point out that an unavailable name can be validated at any stage, so there is no reason not to keep using it for the species. The worst case scenario is that someone renames it with another name, but that is no worse than any name change and will be even more likely to happen if we ignore the current name as you seem to be suggesting. Names function as names, whether or not they are Code compliant. There used to be an arcane myth in taxonomy that a nomen nudum means that name can never be used. Perhaps this myth is still around?
> > Cheers, Stephen
>
> On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 4:13 AM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom 
> <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> >  John,Like just about everyone else on this list, you too haven't 
> >read what I wrote properly! I was explicitly talking only about cases 
> >in which the name does unambiguously apply to a species, by way of a 
> >good taxonomic description which fails on a mere nomenclatural 
> >technicality. You are mixing this up with a different 
> >problem.Cheers,Stephen
> >    On Thursday, 3 June 2021, 03:56:06 am NZST, John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >  As one who has no learned expertise whatsoever on nomenclature, I do find it problematic to 'recognise' or use nomen nudum names. I had this occur in my group (ghost moths) where a Chinese author wrote on the biology of a species using a name without the required designations (designated type specimen and description). So there is no way to know what they were referring to. Obviously it might be a 'real' and new species, but no way to know, and so I see no value in this case continuing to "use an unavailable name as if it were valid". I get the impression that people are free to choose to ignore some or all of the code. Whether such choices are preferable or not is in the eyes of the beholder.
> > John Grehan
> > On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 5:14 AM Andrew Whittington via Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > I'm with Doug on this one Stephen,
> >
> > Of course nobody can prevent use of the name after it has been proposed - but you entirely miss the point that the name should not have been published without proper adherence to the ICZN protocols in the first place.
> >
> > These are not pointless technicalities of the code, but rather lack of adherence to a set of agreed principles that have been developed by the scientific community to serve a very clear purpose. What scientist do and what they should do are clearly two different things and we should be encouraging adherence to the protocols, not dodging around them for convenience.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> > Andrew
> >
> > ====o0o====
> > Andrew E Whittington
> > Consultant Entomologist, PhD, FRES MCSFS Zootaxa Editor: Diptera & 
> > small orders of insects ZooNova Entomology Editor
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> on behalf of 
> > Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Sent: 02 June 2021 03:16
> > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>; Douglas 
> > Yanega <dyanega at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] A nomen nudum in Bombus
> >
> > Well, that's about what I would expect from you Doug - a completely 
> >irrational opinion! Names like Bombus incognitus carry with them 
> >useful scientific data, derived from the publication in which they 
> >were technically an unavailable name. So, your view, if I understand 
> >it, would prevent anyone using the name Bombus incognitus, except 
> >perhaps by way of a note that this name has been used in 
> >publications, but is technically unavailable. My view, rather, is 
> >that we can just use the name, in the usual way, until such time as 
> >it gets validated. This is what happens in reality - does anyone 
> >remember reality? - for names which are unavailable for more subtle 
> >reasons, which nobody may even notice until well down the track. I'm 
> >not trying to undermine the ICZN at all, I'm just trying to reconcile 
> >it with the reality of what scientists do, and minimise disruption 
> >caused by pointless little technicalities of the Code.Cheers, Stephen
> >    On Wednesday, 2 June 2021, 11:48:38 am NZST, Douglas Yanega via Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> >  On 6/1/21 2:56 PM, Stephen Thorpe wrote:
> > > For unavailable names like Bombus incognitus, for example, I 
> > > recommend the following:
> > > Assuming that they refer to a good species without any other name 
> > > available, use the unavailable name as if it were the valid name 
> > > for the taxon, until such time as someone validates the name 
> > > nomenclaturally. Any such validation should use the original name, 
> > > i.e. Bombus incognitus, rather than disruptively coin a different 
> > > name. Of course, if the species is inadvertently named again as 
> > > new, witha different name, then Bombus incognitus will be 
> > > superseded by the new name, except if the name Bombus incognitus 
> > > has already gained wide usage, in which case an application for 
> > > conservation of the name would be appropriate. It must be 
> > > remembered that many names in current usage are unavailable for 
> > > somewhat less obvious reasons than Bombus incognitus, e.g. lack of 
> > > specified type depository, etc. It is far more sensible just to 
> > > continue using them as if they were valid, until such time as any 
> > > nomenclatural problems can be resolved (and there is really no 
> > > hurry or necessity)
> > >
> > I disagree with essentially everything you have suggested above, and 
> > strongly suggest that others here learn from you exactly what NOT to do.
> > It's like you are actively seeking to undermine the principles of 
> > the ICZN, by making proposals that go directly against what the Code 
> > specifically tells people they should do.
> >
> > Give it a rest, please,
> >
> > --
> > Doug Yanega      Dept. of Entomology      Entomology Research Museum  
> >Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92521-0314    skype: dyanega
> > phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)
> >              
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> > bcec4afa26c108d9266dca32%7Ca3927f91cda14696af898c9f1ceffa91%7C0%7C0%
> > 7C637583075259048316%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJ
> > QIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=A3Zm1uO
> > el6YkUZtOh48bXO%2FZBsjibyFeD7fDTWpQmEE%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 34 years, 1987-2021.
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu 
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit: 
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailm
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> 1%7Ctpape%40snm.ku.dk%7C938d4314bcec4afa26c108d9266dca32%7Ca3927f91cda
> 14696af898c9f1ceffa91%7C0%7C0%7C637583075259048316%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZ
> sb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3
> D%7C1000&sdata=xBygPooT3J1CmU3Yin2xEmgh8nxMWhLilk5EC633AFY%3D&
> reserved=0 You can reach the person managing the list at: 
> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu The Taxacom email archive back to 
> 1992 can be searched at: 
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxac
> om.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctpape%40snm.ku.dk%7C938d4314bcec
> 4afa26c108d9266dca32%7Ca3927f91cda14696af898c9f1ceffa91%7C0%7C0%7C6375
> 83075259048316%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2l
> uMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=A3Zm1uOel6YkUZtOh
> 48bXO%2FZBsjibyFeD7fDTWpQmEE%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 34 years, 1987-2021.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu 
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit: 
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailm
> an.nhm.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C0
> 1%7Ctpape%40snm.ku.dk%7C938d4314bcec4afa26c108d9266dca32%7Ca3927f91cda
> 14696af898c9f1ceffa91%7C0%7C0%7C637583075259048316%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZ
> sb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3
> D%7C1000&sdata=xBygPooT3J1CmU3Yin2xEmgh8nxMWhLilk5EC633AFY%3D&
> reserved=0 You can reach the person managing the list at: 
> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu The Taxacom email archive back to 
> 1992 can be searched at: 
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxac
> om.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctpape%40snm.ku.dk%7C938d4314bcec
> 4afa26c108d9266dca32%7Ca3927f91cda14696af898c9f1ceffa91%7C0%7C0%7C6375
> 83075259048316%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2l
> uMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=A3Zm1uOel6YkUZtOh
> 48bXO%2FZBsjibyFeD7fDTWpQmEE%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 34 years, 1987-2021.
_______________________________________________
Taxacom Mailing List

Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit: https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.nhm.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctpape%40snm.ku.dk%7C938d4314bcec4afa26c108d9266dca32%7Ca3927f91cda14696af898c9f1ceffa91%7C0%7C0%7C637583075259048316%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=xBygPooT3J1CmU3Yin2xEmgh8nxMWhLilk5EC633AFY%3D&reserved=0
You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at: https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctpape%40snm.ku.dk%7C938d4314bcec4afa26c108d9266dca32%7Ca3927f91cda14696af898c9f1ceffa91%7C0%7C0%7C637583075259048316%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=A3Zm1uOel6YkUZtOh48bXO%2FZBsjibyFeD7fDTWpQmEE%3D&reserved=0

Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 34 years, 1987-2021.
  
_______________________________________________
Taxacom Mailing List

Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit: https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.nhm.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctpape%40snm.ku.dk%7C938d4314bcec4afa26c108d9266dca32%7Ca3927f91cda14696af898c9f1ceffa91%7C0%7C0%7C637583075259058311%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=RqFkePPqU41QjoBDrrZcE%2BoqJO3DOf%2BrKlgVNLApn8c%3D&reserved=0
You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at: https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctpape%40snm.ku.dk%7C938d4314bcec4afa26c108d9266dca32%7Ca3927f91cda14696af898c9f1ceffa91%7C0%7C0%7C637583075259058311%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Y%2FIPCZSbCsHyz4bxT2e2MHXsjQfp%2FTdFscC4F%2Bu2ofA%3D&reserved=0

Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 34 years, 1987-2021.


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